13-08-2003 11:37									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

That is a bug. Do you know that it still works like that?

	13-08-2003 11:38									#32
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I am, by definition, never wrong.

	13-08-2003 11:40									#33
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Is the proposal to send the galleys with the swordsmen ? If the galleys are sent.... I would suggest dropping the swords onto the two islands, before sending the boats into the ocean. If the galleys sink, the swords can still be on the lookout for suicide galleys from the other continent. And if need be, we could argue the swords are laying claim to the islands, and are waiting for settlers. (ie...claiming that iron) Note: I have not yet decided if suicide galleys are worth it yet. Waiting to hear more arguments. Regs

I like your idea. However, all I think we should do at the moment is one galley. The Expedition is closer to be home and can be used to explore/attack whomever. I think it makes sense to use the PoA.

Leaving the swordsman behind is quite an interesting proposition, and I like it. If we do find land close by, we can always come back and pick him up. If not, then he provides an interesting vantage point to check things out. (As well as act like a beacon for other ships randomly passing through).

	13-08-2003 11:40									#34
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That was the second map I generated randomly, btw. I did not have to go looking for it. The first one had near coastal crossings.

Also keep in mind each continent has 4 civs each, which leads to a more evenly balanced distribution of land and more chances to find it, while also reducing the chance of the "isolation effect."

It's quite common to have an island like the one we found west of CFC to be the "link" between the continents. For example, take the small island to the west of GoW in the PTWDG. Connects the main continent to Legoland, though there was no ocean between them.

For example, take a look at this map:



Using fort-all at the coast farthest west means that the sea on the other side is JUST out of view.

The island I have the screen on and the little arctic blub to the south of it look somewhat familiar, eh?

	13-08-2003 11:41									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That is a bug. Do you know that it still works like that?

Just did it not too long ago, unless it was changed with 1.27f.

	13-08-2003 11:43									#36
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Trip Also keep in mind each continent has 4 civs each, which leads to a more evenly balanced distribution of land and more chances to find it, while also reducing the chance of the "isolation effect." It's quite common to have an island like the one we found west of CFC to be the "link" between the continents. For example, take the small island to the west of GoW in the PTWDG. Connects the main continent to Legoland, though there was no ocean between them. For example, take a look at this map: Using fort-all at the coast farthest west means that the sea on the other side is JUST out of view.

Right. Now, what are the odds of picking that one, perfect, point?

	13-08-2003 11:44									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Right. Now, what are the odds of picking that one, perfect, point?

The island is the springboard. That's the whole idea.

	13-08-2003 11:46									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Yes, but the way across is often not the obvious one.

	13-08-2003 11:48									#39
	Full PM-box? Change here!

And especially not obvious before we even know if there are islands in the north, or Sea within view from corners we have not scouted properly yet.

	13-08-2003 11:48									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Unless there are firm plans for using the Galley(s) in the war on GCA then I see no problem with sending one on a possible suicide mission.

I have to agree that the benefits of finding the other teams is great and that losing a Galley to the open sea/ocean is minimal. The chances that one Galley would put us over the top in a war against GCA is a lot less than the same Galley getting contact the other teams.

	13-08-2003 11:49									#41
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

There's a better chance of finding the other continent while launching from the point furthest to the direction that we want to go, at least with our current knowledge.

Ocean gap at the edge of the map is the biggest 9 times out of 10.

	13-08-2003 11:50									#42
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither And especially not obvious before we even know if there are islands in the north, or Sea within view from corners we have not scouted properly yet.

Why not suicide one galley now and let the remaining one (Expedition), explore these nooks and crannies? If it finds something, it can explore it itself, if not... well it will be able to suicide from a different spot once its completed other mission assignments, increasing our chances of finding something? :P

	13-08-2003 11:52									#43
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

This map is modded. Should I point that out, again?

	13-08-2003 11:53									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit Why not suicide one galley now and let the remaining one (Expedition), explore these nooks and crannies? If it finds something, it can explore it itself, if not... well it will be able to suicide from a different spot once its completed other mission assignments, increasing our chances of finding something? :P

Besides, if we plan to scout the north out instead of using the Galley(s) in the war, that's making the point of using the Galleys for the war completely moot. Or using the Galleys in the war makes the northern exploration moot.

	13-08-2003 12:09									#45
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Gentlemen, please! May I remind several parties here that we are on the SAME TEAM, and while we may disagree in methodology, we all have the same goal? Perhaps jibes, insults, taunting smileys, and all other devices could be put aside for a calmer, more productive debate with less rancor?

I think a "suicide galley" manuever is acceptable, but we first need to exhaust all non-suicidal routes of opportunity.

Regarding the possible military use of these boats: I must agree with Trip that I think this war will go quickly and shatter GCA; they may have similar troops, but a well-organized defense? Probably not. They are heading west, after all.

And in that vein, I do not think the boats would provide any assistance in a war for that same reason. GCA is heading west- troops will be passing through BoP in any offensives they may have planned. Our "flanking unit" could easily end up eating the brunt of an assault force heading towards CFC, or coming back in response to our offensive. Also, our war is about a quick strike - quick strikes will not be affected by 1 unit. Further, that 1 unit will not even be close to our true objective: the GCA capital.

If our quick strike fails, we will be in an ugly war of attrition. Those kinds of wars are not decided by one unit landing in a strange location off the coast, and nor are they decided by four units pulled from the main battle lines.

With the utmost respect to my esteemed peers....

	13-08-2003 12:19									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

When we attack, and if we bog, there will not be many troops heading through BoPower. They will all be heading north to deal with us, or GCA will be handing it to us. I don't think they are that silly.

It is the possibility that a military that is average vs us, with a couple of real 'armies' btw, could stop us in our tracks near the old Goats that has me wanting every weapon at our disposal to be available for the task, and not providing food for fish in some god forgotten ocean.

	13-08-2003 12:20									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Can someone come up with a specific point from which to launch a possible mission to find the other teams?

	13-08-2003 12:21									#48
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

btw, I agree. If we spot a good crossing point, we should take it. We have not spotted such a crossing yet.

	13-08-2003 12:21									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Personally I think we should send PoA on a suicide mission. Ok lets say right now we sent it. It got destroyed in the ocean. We then can build 2 MI. But if we dont send it, we have 1 swordsman that really cant make a difference.

If we actually make contact with the lost civs it would be a great bonus. I think it's 100% worth it.

	13-08-2003 12:49									#50
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I'm going to be checking some things with the editor tonight... I was there for most of the discussion in the ISDG channel and my offering is that I'd like to compute the odds. Since I'm honestly not decided either way, I may not be as inclined to search only for evidence that supports my view

Just playing devil's advocate against the majority for a moment, howver...

1. There are some areas that have not yet been checked out for sea tilies on the far side. Would it be prudent to at least check those out before suiciding a galley or galleys from presently explored locations at which we cannot see sea on the other side?

2. The war with GCA is only the first campaign. The consensus seems to be that after GCA, we will eventually have to face CFC. Can the galleys make it to somewhere useful to pick up armies and be useful in a war against CFC which takes place after the GCA war? If so, that's 60 shields worth of galleys we don't have to build for a naval option against CFC. Is it worth holding them for this despite the potential gains from contacting other civs?

While I'm busy playing with the editor concerning this, discuss this matter

	13-08-2003 12:52									#51
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Ok, here's a plan:

We move to the tile with the red "X" with PoA after unloading the Swordsmen(or not). I would rather keep him onboard for the sight seeing capacity of three tiles.

On the next turn we move along the three red numbered tiles.

If we kept the Swordsmen onboard, we can use the fortify all trick to see the three yellow tiles; else we see only two tiles.

PoA has a 50% chance of sinking before we see the effects of the fortify trick. If it doesn't sink, and we see a 'sea' tile or land, we continue across towards those tiles. If we dont see a 'sea' tile or anything other than a land tile we can come back to the red "X" safely.

I would rather push on for another turn across at this point. The chances of surviving again is at 50%, not 25%. The odds reset to 50% with each successful mission.

I think the probability of finding a Continent within the red circle is very high.

	13-08-2003 13:05									#52
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Another devil's advocate thing I just thought of after posting in the turn 103 thread (about score analysis):

The score analysis right now seems to indicate that Grenoule and Firaxis are getting their asses handed to them by CGN and GWT. Assuming (and I/we might be completely wrong about this) that they are allied against Grenoule and Firaxis, would it be better to contact the other continent BEFORE or AFTER Grenoule and Firaxis have kicked the bucket?

Keep in mind the following:

1. No Alliance Survives Victory. When the only things the two winners have to keep themselves company are each other and they see they're the 2 biggest kids on the block, squabbles over land, resources, and tech are far more likely to lead to cracks in their relationship.... and eventually war.

2. The benefit of contact them SOONER is that we'd have decent trading partners who can potentially give us tech we need so that we can use our GA to research technology not yet owned by any civ rather than duplicating efforts already made by CGN and GWT.

3. The probability of a suicide galley succeeding in these conditions is low, though I haven't yet worked on exactly how low (I'm getting to that).

Discuss

	13-08-2003 13:27									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Wow. This is truly a subject that has our team divided.

I'd like to point out a few things:

1. Don't forget that, under Republic, a Galley needs upkeep of one gold per turn. I haven't seen this included in arguments yet.
   
2. Q: Can we do the following (see BF's map): start at tile X with a Galley plus a Sword, move to red tile 1, fortify all (seeing 3 tiles, thus seeing yellow tile 1), activate all, and move back to X, thus running no risk at all?
   
3. Q: Do we want to make contact with the other continent right now? Normally, I'd say 'yes', but Arnelos has pointed out a few good arguments here.
   
4. We haven't seen the sea area west of the little southern island yet. Q: Are there any other areas we can explore in safety first?
   
5. Q: Assuming that the map has not been modded, or only slightly, can we use the editor to 'predict' the location of a possible crossing point? I can see some regular patterns in the computer-generated maps. For example, the continents seem to "fit" like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle (cf. South America and Africa on Earth).
   
6. (edit: added this one) It's very likely that a large continent exists (determining from the score of the two biggest teams, and the fact that they're probably at war with the two smaller teams). If this continent runs N-S all the way, it's very likely that the location that we're at right now is very close to it. We should test (in the editor) if the existance of one N-S continent implies the existance of another. It's all about juggling with probabilities, of course, but we can increase our chances if we're smart.
   

Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 13-08-2003 at 13:33

	13-08-2003 13:33									#54
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Wow. This is truly a subject that has our team divided. I'd like to point out a few things: [*]Q: Can we do the following (see BF's map): start at tile X with a Galley plus a Sword, move to red tile 1, fortify all (seeing 3 tiles, thus seeing yellow tile 1), activate all, and move back to X, thus running no risk at all? [/list]

Nope The fortify-all trick is done at the end of the turn after the unit has moved already. You do not see the results of the fortify-all trick until the NEXT turn.

	13-08-2003 13:34									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

#1 I think WB mentioned this already

#2 No, you have to remain fortified through to the next turn to see the 3 tiles.

#3 Yes, contact is better than no contact; we don't have to make trades we dont want to.

#4 Yes, all the way on the East and North of Apolyton. Many many tiles from where we are now. Not worth it to wait till then. We can push out a Galley in Republic pretty quickly if we wanted to go that route.

#5 There's the possibility of predicting where the other land mass is. Like saying it is not lying directly on the edge of the mini-map is a given. But, it is still just 'guess' work.

#5

	13-08-2003 13:36									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit Nope The fortify-all trick is done at the end of the turn after the unit has moved already.

I remember being able to wake fortified units, and then moving them on the same turn. Have you actually tried using the trick in the middle of the turn? What happens?

quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit You do not see the results of the fortify-all trick until the NEXT turn.

This is not too much of a problem - we would just get our info one turn later.


Taking the above into account, it might be possible to use the trick, but to no avail, since the computer checks for line of sight at the end of the turn, not during a turn. But still, I think it should be tried!

(edit: just saw BF's post above, confirming my speculation)

	13-08-2003 13:44									#57
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by BigFree #3 Yes, contact is better than no contact; we don't have to make trades we dont want to.

While I'm admittedly playing devil's advocate here, I'd like to get a more thought-out response than this

I'm questioning the assumption that contact is an automatic good... is it?

I'm just thinking about the psychological impact of our contact upon perhaps two self-confidently dominant teams that perhaps only see each other as major threats suddenly able to compare themselves to Apolyton on the powergraph.

It's at least something to ponder.

	13-08-2003 16:08									#58
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hmmm, about mongoose: I just hope that loose lips don't sink ships....

Other than that, I'd agree with Trip in that 1 swordsman, 6+ turns after the start of the war is next to worthless and likely to have no appreciable impact on the war. Even if we land it on their iron, the bulk of their forces will already be engaging our forces and the distraction value will be near nil. They won't go deal with it until they've dealt with our stack o doom, and if they do that then the swordsman is inconsequential.

I also somewhat agree with NYE though in that we are probally just throwing the galley away if we head west into the ocean with no reason to think its going to even see the other side at that point.

But, We may as well try it, the chance of success is pretty low (50% if that is a 1 turn crossing, and we have no way to know if it is), but the pay off is pretty high. The risk factor is also pretty low. So just look at is as a $1 lottery ticket with a 1 in 20 shot of winning a ten thousand bucks....I'd buy it

	13-08-2003 16:09									#59
	Got spare money?

Oh last thought:

Do we really want contact before wiping out GCA? I'm not convinced we shouldn't avoid it until the tide of the war is clearly in our favor.....

	13-08-2003 19:24									#60
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If our Galley suddenly becomes suicidal, it should go directly West from the westernmost Coast tile. I'm afraid our "guesses" as to where the land mass is will prove irrelevant in this case; in can imagine very plausible (unmodded) maps where our best guesses will be foiled. Therefore it is best to use the method that uncovers the most tiles, namely picking a compass direction and sticking with it.


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 13-08-2003 at 19:43