13-08-2003 21:12									#61
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If we do deside to do the suicide route, remember this, for the galley to still be useful to us, it will have to return home. But then, we might be able to check out their coastlines, especially if they don't trade us a map.

I think that the best place to possibily jump off is just west of the chokepoint city, as it's 7 tiles further NW on an NE/SW plain. I'll see about posting a screenshot of this soon.

E_T

P.S. where is Aro, it would be nice to have a full map posted somewhere.

	13-08-2003 21:19									#62
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I think contact before we destroy CDG would be a mistake. We don't need other parties to become overly interested in our affairs until we consolidate our power. Once they have contact with us, theymight suicide galleys themselves, guessing on the one turn crossing, and then the war would be quite different.

I think it would be best to send the galley back to put in position to take an undefended southern city if possible. Or to divert a few offensive units from moving north.

	13-08-2003 21:22									#63
	Remove this text

Okay, 1 day of discussion is good, going to start a 3-day poll now.

	13-08-2003 22:15									#65
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Our contenent (including the islands and the sea tiles) is roughly triangular in shape. The black area that contains the other contenent is approximately the same shape, just inverted. IF we are going to send off a suicide galley, we should do it at the point that looks to be the closest, which is close to the chokepoint. This point on the map is also close to the equator, which would put a galley that sailed NW into the other contenent's plains/desert and beging temparate zone. This should be our point of attempted crossing.

MoI E_T

	14-08-2003 00:16									#66
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Do we have any proof that the map was intentionally modded?

I know this is slightly besides the point, but it would be nice to be clear on this so that it does not come up uselessly in other debates.


Dominae

	14-08-2003 00:20									#67
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Mongoose told me he probably slipped and hit the map with ocean (while we were chatting he was looking at the map and he accidentally placed another ocean tile while we were talking while clicking between screens).

Whether or not you believe him. I'm inclined to do so, since he does know everything, and intentionally giving us false information isn't really, uh, tactful.

Edit: Clarification.

Last edited by Trip on 14-08-2003 at 00:30

	14-08-2003 00:26									#68
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

So, no offense, by why is nye going on about how the map is modded and that we cannot make any predictions? It's not really important, I just wanted to get this straight.

This is a very tough decision. I can definitely see the merit in keeping our Galley and Sworsdmen behind for GCA. Perfect situation for a poll.


Dominae

	14-08-2003 00:32									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae So, no offense, by why is nye going on about how the map is modded and that we cannot make any predictions? It's not really important, I just wanted to get this straight.

He feels that since the map isn't 100% RNG generated there may be 50 ocean tiles between us and the other continent (which the map editor wouldn't do).

I don't think that Mongoose just went and shaved 10 tiles off the edge of a continent, or built the entire thing from scratch... so even if it is somewhat modded I doubt he would have placed much focus upon the coastline.

	14-08-2003 00:34									#70
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from the looks of the map, and from the way the editor makes the maps, I think our best bet for suicide galleys is actually the east of the continent, not the west. I'll bet anyone the other continent looks like a triangle with the hypotenuse in the same 45 degree angle as the western shores of our continent.

	14-08-2003 00:43									#71
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Default settings in the editor should yield sea all around where you click on the map 'accidentally' to place an ocean tile, I think. We have ocean next to coast, and it has been suspected that the interesting aspect of our landmass, the two choke points, was created. It looks to me as if the map has been changed purposefully, and that a mistake was made.

I am not going to face Mongoose about this yet, if ever. There is little point. Once we win the game, if we win, it could be brought up. While playing the game, it would just appear like a losing side complaining and trying to blame others for our own inability.

What we are left with is that the map has been changed in some respects that we can see. What else has been changed that we cannot see?

	14-08-2003 02:13									#72
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I think I have to agree with nye about the Map being modded further than just the one 'slip up' by mongoose. The two different chokepoints are very hard to explain using the RMG. It sure would suck to find out he modded the map to favor a Civ or two....

	14-08-2003 02:50									#73
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I think I have to agree with nye about the Map being modded further than just the one 'slip up' by mongoose. The two different chokepoints are very hard to explain using the RMG. It sure would suck to find out he modded the map to favor a Civ or two....

well then that explains our lousy start!

btw, I belive I have never seen two chopoints ever in the editor like that. Plus, look how the mountain range and desert range seem to go fluid from one side to the other (CFC to GCA's side) looks like that was one big land mass which was turned into a big lake.

	14-08-2003 02:55									#74
	Put an end to popups!

I'll grant that the two chokepoints are fishy...

I'm not sure about hitting Coast with Ocean and producing Sea tiles, though. Can someone with easy access to the editor verify this? If nye is right on this one, then I would say that the map was definitely modded intentionally, since that weird Ocean tile would not have been a mere mistake.


Dominae

	14-08-2003 09:12									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I'll grant that the two chokepoints are fishy... I'm not sure about hitting Coast with Ocean and producing Sea tiles, though. Can someone with easy access to the editor verify this? If nye is right on this one, then I would say that the map was definitely modded intentionally, since that weird Ocean tile would not have been a mere mistake.

Ocean has to be adjacent to sea or coast, it cannot be adjacent to land. So the former land tiles would be transformed into coast, but the sea tiles are fine since the editor naturally allows ocean to be placed next to sea (since the sea already existed).

	14-08-2003 12:05									#76
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Creating an Ocean tile next to a Coast tile manually is fine; however, the map generator does not do it.

	14-08-2003 19:11									#77
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

So we agree that the runaway Ocean tile could have been placed by mistake. All we have left therefore is the fishy chokepoints.


Dominae

	15-08-2003 09:38									#78
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OK - this has only just been brouight to my attention - I have been a way for a a day and a bit due to that stupid worm virus, and now I come back and find an issue has been rushed through. Yes rushed through.

I have not clearly formed an opinion (haven't had the time to!), but I am very confused on one thing: why now? What is the great rush in sending the Galley to commit suicide? Why not wait a few turns? What harm could that cause?

If I am asking so many questions it is because I am puzzled by this. I too see the great possibilities that will come to us from making contact with the other civs, and I want contact sooner rather than later - but why just throw away a Galley so fast? We may need to, sure. We may do so within 10 turns, but let's look at things here:

if we get lucky with a suicide now, we get contact and all the pluses and minuses that come with it. OK. If we aren't lucky then we lose a Galley - a risk we will need to take. But the true negative is the dissatisfaction it is clear would be felt by those who feel that there has not been enough discussion in this. This is not a case of sour grapes - I myself, having just been dragged into this mess, feel that it has gone too fast, and as stated I have not decided how I feel yet.

We are a team, and we are supposed to work together to come up with the best option. That means we all look at the existing options and discuss. Some feel that there has been enough discussion already. I certainly do not. I urge everyone to please give this matter some more thought, and to think about why we need to rush a decision one way or the other. If you can't find a reason to rush, then let's try and get a FULL discussion going.