13-08-2003 22:42									#1
	Now that We have the chokepoint Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

First, what do we want to rename it? GF's Folly perhaps??

Secondly, we now have access to the silks that are on the other side of the chokepoint. We should build a settler someplace and send some workers to road to it and clear the jungle. With that 1 extra Luxury, we can get to size 6 without any need for the lux slider and size 7 with a temple. This will help out our city sitiation for the GA, as we can be at our fullest production capabilities with that one extra lux.

MoI E_T

	13-08-2003 23:03									#2
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I agree. We'd be able to get that luxury a lot quicker than waiting until we eliminate GCA and get the ones on the south side of their area. Plus it will help with war weariness during the war since it appears that is back in.

	13-08-2003 23:49									#3
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There should be some discussion with CFC about a border now. How will they react to a city appearing past the choke point?

	13-08-2003 23:53									#4
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Didn't we already agree to a border via the deal CDG and CFC made (we accept both sides claims to the different sides of the chokepoint)?

	13-08-2003 23:57									#5
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I am not sure. I have never seen details of those discussions posted that I can recall. Maybe I missed them.

	14-08-2003 00:02									#6
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I did too then. I don't remember it if I did see it. If there is a border deal at the chokepoint then it precludes us from placing that city.

	14-08-2003 00:29									#7
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I do not recall a border deal. We can settle where we please. If CFC bictches about it, we can try to work something out then.

We can use the premise that we don't know for sure that GCA will be eleminated and therfore are looking to split the landmass 3-ways for now. Those silks will be a godsend to us for the reasons ET mentioned.

	14-08-2003 00:43									#8
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I would LOVE to see CFC get mad at us for placing a town on the silks right now.

"I'm sorry, you are mad at us for placing that town? You're right, we should be more careful. Hmmm. While we're at it with this "being careful" thing, I think we're going to sit on that invasion plan for a bit and ....carefully... examine it."

They won't say a friggin word, unless they want the continent divided North/South instead of West/East with GCA instead of them.

	14-08-2003 00:47									#9
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Please keep in mind (have I posted this elsewhere?) that many at CFC want to make peace with GCA. And if GCA believes we'll attack them (and they surely do) then they will realize that having 1/3 of their army tied up with CFC will only hurt their chances of surviving.

If GCA decides to relent, and CFC says screw it, we could face an apathetic CFC and the full brunt of the GCA army.

Now wouldn't that be fun?

So until the actual invasion begins, we need to keep CFC on our "good side." As long as GCA forces are tied up we should try to keep things that way.

Note, I'm not saying we shouldn't try to get those silks, but we should be wary of all consequences of our actions.

	14-08-2003 00:51									#10
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So, Mr.Evil-Plan-Maker, why don't we enter into negotiations NOW with GCA to split the continent North/South and finish off CFC.... with every intention of backstabbing GCA on our approved timetable, of course?

	14-08-2003 00:54									#11
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Because GCA is closer and killing a worthy opponent will be much more gratifying.

	14-08-2003 00:58									#12
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We also may need CFC for research partnership if contact cannot be easily made.

If and when we both realise that no-one is getting off this rock before Astronomy or Navigation, then the threat of riders is greatly diminished, is it not?

	14-08-2003 01:27									#13
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Definitely a time for Realpolitick; move one the silk. Never forgo a strategic asset in an act of unilateral good will. CFC will make deals with us for one reason, because it is in their interest to do so.

If there is a clear treaty that states we are not to settle there then we shouldn't break it, but otherwise it would be foolish to forgo this asset.

	14-08-2003 03:46									#14
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There is no treaty.

CFC wanted us to affirm/ratify the border treaty they made with CDG, but they never sent us the treaty and CDG got killed off shortly thereafter.

CFC does consider that north jungle their territory, so we will have to tread carefully. I would recommend that we keep it on the low down for now, just build a road and say that it's for trading purposes with CFC, then once the war is in fully swing and CFC is happily involved in it, we just build the city and explain to them our need for silks to combat War Weariness. We stick to our guns and ride our success/friendship karma to get away with it.

--Togas

	14-08-2003 06:00									#15
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If the purpose is to get the silk, why don't we just put in a colony there ?

Colony = Worker + Warrior (we get silk & nothing else)

City = Settle + Warrior (we get probably 1 gold per turn, lots of corruption, deteriorating relationship with CFC)

	14-08-2003 06:08									#16
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I like Rush's idea quite a bit, actually. That wouldn't take much effort and wouldn't drive CFC up the wall ....probably.

	14-08-2003 06:31									#17
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And we can use CDG Worker to build the Colony, since it's only 1/2 as fast as our Workers.

	14-08-2003 07:07									#18
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quote: CFC does consider that north jungle their territory, so we will have to tread carefully. I would recommend that we keep it on the low down for now, just build a road and say that it's for trading purposes with CFC, then once the war is in fully swing and CFC is happily involved in it, we just build the city and explain to them our need for silks to combat War Weariness. We stick to our guns and ride our success/friendship karma to get away with it.

Excellent idea , perhaps brilliant.

quote: If the purpose is to get the silk, why don't we just put in a colony there ?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think building a city next to another civ's colony requires declaring war, and having your borders expand into one certainly doesn't.
Therefore they could simply build a city, say "it's our property, it always has been, and what are you going to do about it".
Basically our political/strategic situation requires that we become allies, so what we grab they are very unlikely to take by force or even try to harm us by refusing trade or such (it would harm them as much as it would harm us). OTOH we are in the same position, if they build a city next to our colony what are we going to do about it? That's right, nothing.

	14-08-2003 07:16									#19
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We could trade them dyes and incense for silk and furs?

	14-08-2003 07:23									#20
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I doubt CFC will build a city on the silks for a very long time to come. They have better ways to spend their shields and population.

After we conquer GCA we'll have our own alternate sources of furs and silks, so we won't have to trade with CFC at all. I doubt they'll be building a Harbor any time soon, and I certainly don't see a road stretching across the entire continent being built any time soon, certainly not before we'll have our own sources from GCA.

	14-08-2003 07:26									#21
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Besides, CFC has incense.

	14-08-2003 07:29									#22
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However, I am sure it would be easier to cajole them into tolerating a silk colony, and then a silk concession from them if and when they build a city there, than for them to tolerate a city.

btw, when they build a city adjacent to our colony, there will be a road between our capitals if they build a road to their city, which is the usual practice...

	14-08-2003 07:33									#23
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Sparing a couple Workers to help complete the road between the Chokepoint and the road heading our way, and the last leg to the west should be a priority. We will have to move 1 more regular NM over to the chokepoint and move WB to the colony, to have them both relatively safe (especially from barbs).

	14-08-2003 08:29									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon I would LOVE to see CFC get mad at us for placing a town on the silks right now. "I'm sorry, you are mad at us for placing that town? You're right, we should be more careful. Hmmm. While we're at it with this "being careful" thing, I think we're going to sit on that invasion plan for a bit and ....carefully... examine it."

GCA is sending peace proposals to CFC. It's only the hope of us intervening that is prohibiting CFC from accepting them. Remember that friends are usueful only up until you can backstab them to your fullest advantage. Now is not the time and relishing on other teams getting mad at us just for the joy of it is hardly a sound foreign policy.

	14-08-2003 10:00									#25
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We can place a city on one of the silk tiles and they can still have that one silk that is off to the side, closer to them.

Also, we can say that we will gift it to them at a future date and time, after we have taken care of GCA and have their supply of silks. If they don't trust us, so what... we can try

E_T

	14-08-2003 10:03									#26
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I still don't see the need for a city. A colony is fine as long as we have units to protect it (which would be the same case for a city). We can simply use the 1/2 productive CDG Worker to build the thing instead of burning 2 valuable pop points from one of our big cities.

	14-08-2003 10:10									#27
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One problem is time, as we need to still get 3 tiles roaded to even get to the point to place a colony (mountain and 2 jungle). Using that 1 slave will take forever to get it done. Besides, a city is a bit more defendable than a bare colony.

But this is a discussion about possibily using that silk. If we do decide to connect it up in whatever fashion, it better to plan for it now.

E_T

	14-08-2003 10:16									#28
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Well, that silk is very valuable, and I'm sure an NM on the colony could take care of it pretty well. Size 6 without a Temple is nice, and I would assume we would want to hook it up ASAP, which would require more than the slave Worker. Add 2 more Workers from the main clearing effort (maybe the HoD Workers) and we should have it up without too much trouble. Whether or not we build a city we'll need to bring some Workers west to hook them up. That should be our immediate concern if we plan on hooking them up (which I think we should).

The only conceivable threat to the city/colony would be lone barb Horsemen, and the difference between a city and a colony defense-wise is non-existant (unless our unit loses).

	14-08-2003 18:56									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen GCA is sending peace proposals to CFC. It's only the hope of us intervening that is prohibiting CFC from accepting them. Remember that friends are usueful only up until you can backstab them to your fullest advantage. Now is not the time and relishing on other teams getting mad at us just for the joy of it is hardly a sound foreign policy.

All the more reason to control the silk ourselves. I hardly consider an international road so that we can trade for silk equivalent to controlling it ourselves.

CFC is not switching to republic right? So after the GCA war CFC will already be in a superior happiness situation, yanking a luxury from us would certainly amplify this advantage. Hardly a card I'd want to throw away out of good will.

	14-08-2003 19:28									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Trip We can simply use the 1/2 productive CDG Worker to build the thing instead of burning 2 valuable pop points from one of our big cities.

Isn't that slave also free of upkeep? It would be foolish to let that go, even if it only works half as hard. A normal worker is less worth...

(Not that I want to get involved in the colony or city discussion, I have no opinion on that)

DeepO