15-08-2003 02:05									#1
	The next AU course (after AU402 - Gargantua) Increase the size of your Attachments

Ok, it's been a relatively long while since the last AU course. A lot has been happening in the AU world, but there's been a distinct lack of one thing: playing Civ3! Time to remedy this.

As discussed in this thread, the theme for the next AU course will be a "no Golden Age" game.

The idea is deceptively simple: win the game without ever triggering your Golden Age. Note that this means you cannot win a battle with your UU, and it restricts the Wonders you can build/own at a particular time.

What we need now is some discussion on the specifics of the game. I was thinking of a pretty standard random map.

Where we could get interesting is tribe choice. I would like to use a civ that is more or less defined by its UU, so that not using it would be actually a factor. Furthermore, the UU should be such that simply "replacing" it with an equivalent era unit (like Swordmen with Horsemen) should be somewhat difficult. A tribe with a Knight replacement UU would therefore be ideal, IMO. However, I also like the idea of using Greece.

I would like to use a simple mod where the flags for various Wonders are changed somewhat. This would make the Wonder part of the "no GA" more difficult to maneuver around. For example, if we were to use Greece, we could add "Commercial" to Leonardo's Workshop, which is currently only "Militaristic". Of course, we would all have to agree on the changes. They would be minimal.

Thoughts?


Dominae

	15-08-2003 03:48									#2
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Greece? No Hopelites! You'd have to use warriors and then swordsmen for defending your cities.

But the effect of not having Hopelites wouldn't be too drastic IMO. A depostic GA (if you were using hopelites) isn't very good and you would usually avoid it if able to. I like the idea of a civ with a knight or cavalry replacement UU as that's when most people really want to expand their empires. Vikings also come to mind.

	15-08-2003 03:55									#3
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quote: Originally posted by badams52 But the effect of not having Hopelites wouldn't be too drastic IMO. A depostic GA (if you were using hopelites) isn't very good and you would usually avoid it if able to.

Ah, but here you can *never* trigger your GA! You're not only avoiding a despotic GA in this game, you're avoiding one altogether.


Dominae

	15-08-2003 04:00									#4
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Yes, I understand. What I was trying to say, but didn't say it very well, was that if you play the Greeks in a normal game, you aren't likely to want to use the hopelites in a war effort so that you won't trigger your GA too early. But if you were the Chinese, a middle ages GA can do wonders and so you would be more likely to want use riders.

So if you aren't allowed to trigger your GA, not having hopelites wouldn't be as bad as not having riders.

	15-08-2003 04:07									#5
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Sure sure, but what *I* was trying to say is that, in most cases, the Greeks trigger their GA with Hoplites anyway, because 1) they're useful well into the Medieval Age, and 2) it's easier to do so than trigger with Wonders.


Dominae

	15-08-2003 06:45									#6
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First off, as the author of the thread that started this, I guess I should say that it's a brilliant idea. (Hey, I'm allowed 1 in my lifetime. No idea why I wasted it now!!)

It seems to me that we can make this as hard or as easy as we'd like. I think losing an ancient era UU (such as Greece) will be easier to overcome than a knight or cav replacement, which really does come into play at the time when most players are making their moves towards domination. In this regard, I think that the Ottomans would be the hardest civ to play (though the Russians would have it tough too, perhaps; I never play them). First, you are stuck with knights until the arrival of tanks, hurting your warmongering. Second, you will be forced to choose between industrious and scientific wonders. Thus, if you go the GL route, you have to pass up Pyramids and HG. It will also complicate a tactic I (and I'm sure others) use quite a bit, in which I launch a war not too far from getting Scientific Method, while doing a pre-build. I'll use any leader generated to either rush ToE, or wait until it's done and rush Hoovers. With the productivity bonus of Hydro Plants and the tech advantage, I usually find that the game is essentially over. Since your military will be based on knights, generating the Leader needed to pull this stunt will be hard, especially since you'll also have to disband the city that just built ToE.

I think Ottomans would be fun and am willing to try them, but I have no idea how hard it would actually be. After all the brutally hard recent AU's, I understand if people don't want to dive back into the hard work that would be required to win. (As Arrian pointed out in the earlier thread, this IS supposed to be fun.)

I therefor vote for civs with either cav or knight replacements. A question: how critical do you all think it is that we choose one specific civ? In a nutshell, do we learn more from having all of us deal with the same problems or from seeing how different players choose to approach the problem? I can easily be persuaded either way.

	15-08-2003 10:06									#7
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I can't address the learning process aspect, but it would be a lot easier to use one civ. That way we could post the wonders that would trigger a GA. If not I will blunder right into it. It is easy to note to not use the UU, but to be aware of all the ramification of the wonders, is another thing altogether.

As to the fun, part that is hard to say. If it a nightmare of not building any wonders or abandoning them, it could become ugly.

A challenge is good, pain is not.

	15-08-2003 10:31									#8
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I think we should choose one specific civ.

	15-08-2003 13:58									#9
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I'm not sure if playing as the Greeks would really be a problem. It wouldn't be that hard to play as a very peaceful builder and defend with a few warriors and Swords until Pikes come along ... unless the map was modded so that early war was a practical necessity ... which is probably what you'll do anyway ... so I'll shut up.

	15-08-2003 17:26									#10
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Who needs to defend his cities? Destroy them as they advance towards them. I've never felt the need to use spearmen in my ancient wars, so the loss of hoplites is no biggie. Knights or cav are the only ones that will be a challenge as I see it.

	15-08-2003 17:34									#11
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I'd like to see a game with these restrictions:

• Never build your UU
  
• Never build a Wonder (even small ones, except the FP?). Immediately abandon all captured cities that contain a Wonder.
  
• Disband all Great Leaders
  

	15-08-2003 18:39									#12
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I like the simple "no GA" idea instead. The idea proposed by FrustratedPoet most definitely falls into the "pain and no fun" category for many casual players (I would be willing to try it, but that's a different story). Plus, I think "no Wonders" could be the theme for another course.

Please offer suggestions for possible civs we could play with this one. So far all we've heard about is Greece, Ottomania and China.


Dominae

	15-08-2003 18:46									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I like the simple "no GA" idea instead. The idea proposed by FrustratedPoet most definitely falls into the "pain and no fun" category for many casual players (I would be willing to try it, but that's a different story). Plus, I think "no Wonders" could be the theme for another course.

Fair enough.

quote: Please offer suggestions for possible civs we could play with this one. So far all we've heard about is Greece, Ottomania and China.

I think a Civ with either a Spearman or Knight replacement UU would fit best. Greece, China and Japan are the best choices IMHO.

I'm not sure about the Ottomans. Plenty of players here would be well capable of dominating the game before Cavalry anyway, even without using their GA.

	15-08-2003 19:30									#14
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Carthage.

Not being able to defend with Num Mercs, which don't normally need to be replaced until riflemen, although Carthage can build muskets, probably affects the game for the longest period of time of any UU.

Persia.

No Immortals and a map rigged to make getting horses difficult.

In a way I think industrious civs will be hardest hit by the GW restrictions. All that production and nothing to build with it - fewer GW's and no UU's.

	15-08-2003 20:52									#15
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My vote (if I have one) goes to Ottomans. Scientific and Industrious have some great wonders and cavalry is the first unit you really can't replace with anything. You can use Medieval Infantry during the knight period and rush for cav as many do. On the other hand, forcing the use of MI could be interesting as well, plus you can often decide the game before cav comes, which means China would be the best choice.

	17-08-2003 01:24									#16
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Doesn't the editor have an option for determinign how long a GA is? If so, could it just be turned down to 0? If so, would that restrict the AI from having a GA also (and thus violating the idea of teh game)? Not trigering teh GA is not the same as never building your UU. Using the greeks as mentioned above, you could build your hoplites, just never put them in a position to win a battle. That way you can still upgrade them to infantry later on. It also wouldn't take much to mod a scenario where you just couldn't build your UU if that is what you are looking to do - just remove it from the build list.

To me, the hardest part would be watching what wonders you build and capture.