15-08-2003 10:06									#1
	Suicide Galleys vs further exploration - urgent or further discussion? Tired of ads?

OK - you can't log on to this forum and miss the threads dealing with the idea of sending at least one Galley into the ocean West of the Southern island. You will also have seen how controversial the issue has become, despite the poll result currently being clearly in favour of the suicide option.

My question is why so fast? I was away barely a day and a half due to that stupid worm virus, and I come back to be told the issue is almost resolved without my even hearing about it! I daresay others were in the same position as me.

We all can see the various whys and whynot arguments, but what about timing? It is implicit in the polls we have going that this is to be done right now, yet where is this polled? In chat I have not managed to get anyone to give me a reason why the suicide should occur now. I thus can only think that there may be no reason.

Now I have no qualms with suiciding a Galley, but I DO have a problem when it looks like the team can't agree even with an unambiguous poll result.

So, I ask each teammember to vote for URGENT or DELAY in the above poll. URGENT means we go ahead with the suicide Galley NOW, as in the next turn or two. But I hope those who vote this option will at least post WHY we must move now, even just to clear up my confusion. DELAY means we can discuss when it will be acceptable to suicide the Galley, possibly freeing it up to explore elsewhere in the meantime, and also giving us a chance to pull ourselves together as a team again.

3 Day poll.

	15-08-2003 10:30									#2
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I vote URGENT, if we can get contact with the other continent before they exterminate some of their inhabitants (fireaxians), we have the possibility to change map for gold with the loosing side on that continent. If we wait there will be only strong trading partners on that part.

Let the Princes of Apolyton sail, she is a strong ship.

	15-08-2003 12:30									#3
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I say now as well. For one, we are in position to do it. The second reason is that the longer you wait the less valauble contact for just our Civ will be with the others on the other continent; plus who knows how long Firaxis or Grenoule teams will be around for.

Also, this poll seems to drag out the other poll. If the other poll says to do it, it means now. That's the way polls work unless it is specifically stated in the poll.

	15-08-2003 12:49									#4
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If we suicide, and we only have one galley to do it with, shouldn't we pick the best spot, regardless of how long it takes?

	15-08-2003 13:53									#5
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I agree that it should only be one galley for the mission, if we go.

Yes, I said "if".

I first dismissed the idea of taking out GCA's Iron source for two reasons:

1. They will protect it
They know it's on the coast and will protect it.

2. They have a second Iron within their terr right now.
I know I would have hooked up that second source by now, just in case.

The other options I'm looking at now include other resource denial. They have likey 3 luxes hooked up now. The other resource would be their horses.

But, how long would it be before our forces were killed? Would we even have the chance to cut the road before the killed us? We have only 2 swords available to do this mission. If we had 4 NM's I would feel diferently. I honestly don't see how those 2 swordsmen could have a major impact on the war, especially if we dropped them behind the lines.

If we were to bring both ships back to home, or near it, and load them with NM's (4) THEN sail towards GCA's resouces, I would support that 100%. It might be enough to send them after the war has started. They would be on a combo resource denial/pillage mission. 4 NM's will be a difficult force for GCA to deal with, especially if we can put together an Army Group "C" shortly after we enter into a GA.

This is what I would reccomend for our Galley(s). If not, then I'm still in favor of sending one (PoA) to try to find the other teams. Maybe its just me who sees a great value in finding the others...I hope some don't see it as pure folly.

	15-08-2003 16:07									#6
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I haven't voted yet:

But we do need to decide now because if we decide to bring either galley home than every turn delay makes it less useful in the war. On the other hand, if we send either out to explore further, then waiting probally doesn't hurt that much unless they've spent the turns we've waited heading back towards home.

	15-08-2003 17:12									#7
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It seems clear that the other poll does NOT mean "do it now" judging by the results of this one.

	15-08-2003 18:02									#8
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Unless a few people who voted 'yes' to sending the galley in the previous poll steps forward and state that they are now either opposed or undecided I think we should consider it valid. If the previous poll is valid then we might as well send the galley now rather then later.

(Vote temporarily withheld)

	15-08-2003 19:47									#9
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The decision on what do is is important to make quickly.

Once we decide whether or not to send a Galley soon (10 turns or less) then we can refine the exact details.

It's better than having the Galleys sail to a point where we lose 3 or 4 or 5 turns of sailing and have to turn around after a "proper" discussion has taken place.

More important issues have been decided faster and with less input.

Also, I think this poll is misleading MWIA. Some people will think you're asking "should this issue be DECIDED now," while other will think "should we SEND the Galleys now." Which means you won't be getting a clear-cut answer - there's a difference between deciding now to send one and deciding to send one now.

Last edited by Trip on 15-08-2003 at 19:54

	15-08-2003 20:46									#10
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quote: Originally posted by jagjef I vote URGENT, if we can get contact with the other continent before they exterminate some of their inhabitants (fireaxians), we have the possibility to change map for gold with the loosing side on that continent. If we wait there will be only strong trading partners on that part. Let the Princes of Apolyton sail, she is a strong ship.

If there are losing, they will likely not have much, if any gold to trade for our Map. As for Map Trades with ANY of the Lost Civs, I would ONLY support TM trades, No WM Trades at all, unless it's one of their WM's coming to us.

E_T

	15-08-2003 20:50									#11
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We could trade a cheap tech to Grenouille or Firaxis for their map. Then we'll have a map of the other continent (or most of it).

	15-08-2003 21:02									#12
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Point taken, Trip, but I am still reeling from the speed of the discussion. Moreover (and most importantly) I am concerned by the fact that some of the Ministers and at least one Consul are very strongly opposed, yet the team's votes seem to be clear cut in the opposite direction. I have seen some very bitter posts made from both sides on the issue, and I would hope we can find a solution to this. Whatever the issue, the last thing I want (or hopefully anyone wants) is for team unity to be undermined by one seemingly insignificant little issue.

The against-suicide side claims that discussion has been rushed and the poll on what to do followed too quickly. Whichever is the best course of action, I agree with them on this, and this was the best way I could see to try and get people to stop and think for a moment about how urgent things like this are.

I cannot invalidate the result (whatever it turns out to be) of the poll on whether to send a suicide Galley or not. All I wanted to do here was to get an answer on why is it so necessary to do things RIGHT NOW, and to get people thinking about that. Whatever our actions, it is clear that we will need to send a suicide Galley, but not necessarily right away.

So what our decision for THIS poll comes down to, then, is whether we send a Galley out West of the Sth island NOW, or whether we can stop a turn or three to decide whether or not we have to do this now, or whether we can try from, say, the tiny island we found Currency on, or whether we head North first to check the area West of Poly, without the risk of suicide without finding land.

Faced with the number of options, I think the options have been simplified as suicide vs no suicide. As has been pointed out, we have other places we could check before losing a Galley. We have been very efficient so far, and it is this efficiency that will give us an edge over most if not all teams. To rush this action through, as seems to be happening, is basically throwing out our carefulness for a whim. I for one have not seen enough debate to be convinced that the risks are worth sending one right now.

What will be the difference to sending a Galley in 5 turns? In 10? 20? I don't want to be stuck through the Medieval age with just CFC either - I want contact too. But do I want to make sure that when we sacrifice a Galley it is because there is nothing significant we are missing out on by sacrificing our Galley. If we commit now we risk losing a Galley before it has been able to play any role in the war, before it has explored more than one small corner of the map. And what difference will having those extra few turns elapse make to sending now?

THANK YOU jagjef for finally giving me a reason why we should move now to try to find the other civs. Allow me to explain why I do not believe we need to find them now.

Who cares how long Firaxis/Grenouille are around for? So what if we make contact a few turns before their annihilation? Are they going to go the CDG way and gift everything in the face of their aggressors? Why should they? CDG is hoping to join the teams they have helped and hope to continue to use that to push to victory. THAT is the reason we have got such great deals out of them. That and the fact they have acted irrationally through the whole game. We have no reason to suspect other team of such bizarre behaviour. Neither Firaxis nor Grenouille are going to do that if we contact them soon. And there is precious little we could get from them anyway - if they ARE losing the war then there is little they have, and we know how puny they have been through the game - there are two powers besides GCA rivalling ours, and they will not be exterminated soon.

Of course, we can find out their lands through a possible map trade. Quite apart from the fact that a map trade is not going to benefit any of the small civs, let alone a dying one (and thus there is no reason we would expect such a trade), we will be charting the coasts anyway, and an embassy would handily show their capital and all resources they have connected. And what could we do with the land info? There will be no invasion for a LONG time, and by then the info we have will be nearly useless. Also, what are we going to swap for a map? Not our own map, if we value theirs that much, and we have no gold to spare. We can't trade resources until Navigation/Magnetism anyway, and part of the reason that is stated we want contact is because it is felt some may be ahead of us techwise. We are not in a position to trade anything, even if we DID make contact.

I see no reason to suicide Galley now - it gives us no benefit over suiciding after using the Galley for missions such as exploring to the North and potentially finding a risk-free crossing, or for maneouvring workers and/or troops where we want them throught the jungle. It is a needless risk where there is no benefit beyond a cheap thrill and a risk of a loss of a unit we have invested several turns into. Only two Galleys were built because we could only spare enough shields for two. If we waste one how long d'you reckon before we replace it? This war won't be easy, and we won't be rolling in disposable shields, even in our GA. Then we'd better make damn sure we use the two we have to their fullest. And while there are other missions, it is folly to waste a Galley on a chance for something we are no better off with than if we waited a short time.

	15-08-2003 21:21									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Trip We could trade a cheap tech to Grenouille or Firaxis for their map. Then we'll have a map of the other continent (or most of it).

Good chance of backfire, don't want to start off on the wrong foot with the dominant teams by backing their opponents. And the chance that we can contact one of the 2 losers soon is I suppose only 50/50. If we hit a big boy, they probably won't allow us to traverse their waters for free.


I think we need to keep things simple until CDG is destroyed. That means no contact with new civs, no mass threads about the wars abroad and no spending our human resources on chats and other such with off continent civs when the fate of our own is up in the air. When All thats left is CFC and Poly, then contact would be good to have. But I see the other four civs as complicating things here.

Point for clarification: is the sword to accompany one of the galleys on the suicide mission?

	15-08-2003 21:23									#14
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Point taken, Trip, but I am still reeling from the speed of the discussion. Moreover (and most importantly) I am concerned by the fact that some of the Ministers and at least one Consul are very strongly opposed, yet the team's votes seem to be clear cut in the opposite direction. I have seen some very bitter posts made from both sides on the issue, and I would hope we can find a solution to this. Whatever the issue, the last thing I want (or hopefully anyone wants) is for team unity to be undermined by one seemingly insignificant little issue. The against-suicide side claims that discussion has been rushed and the poll on what to do followed too quickly. Whichever is the best course of action, I agree with them on this, and this was the best way I could see to try and get people to stop and think for a moment about how urgent things like this are. I cannot invalidate the result (whatever it turns out to be) of the poll on whether to send a suicide Galley or not. All I wanted to do here was to get an answer on why is it so necessary to do things RIGHT NOW, and to get people thinking about that. Whatever our actions, it is clear that we will need to send a suicide Galley, but not necessarily right away. So what our decision for THIS poll comes down to, then, is whether we send a Galley out West of the Sth island NOW, or whether we can stop a turn or three to decide whether or not we have to do this now, or whether we can try from, say, the tiny island we found Currency on, or whether we head North first to check the area West of Poly, without the risk of suicide without finding land. Faced with the number of options, I think the options have been simplified as suicide vs no suicide. As has been pointed out, we have other places we could check before losing a Galley. We have been very efficient so far, and it is this efficiency that will give us an edge over most if not all teams. To rush this action through, as seems to be happening, is basically throwing out our carefulness for a whim. I for one have not seen enough debate to be convinced that the risks are worth sending one right now. What will be the difference to sending a Galley in 5 turns? In 10? 20? I don't want to be stuck through the Medieval age with just CFC either - I want contact too. But do I want to make sure that when we sacrifice a Galley it is because there is nothing significant we are missing out on by sacrificing our Galley. If we commit now we risk losing a Galley before it has been able to play any role in the war, before it has explored more than one small corner of the map. And what difference will having those extra few turns elapse make to sending now? THANK YOU jagjef for finally giving me a reason why we should move now to try to find the other civs. Allow me to explain why I do not believe we need to find them now. Who cares how long Firaxis/Grenouille are around for? So what if we make contact a few turns before their annihilation? Are they going to go the CDG way and gift everything in the face of their aggressors? Why should they? CDG is hoping to join the teams they have helped and hope to continue to use that to push to victory. THAT is the reason we have got such great deals out of them. That and the fact they have acted irrationally through the whole game. We have no reason to suspect other team of such bizarre behaviour. Neither Firaxis nor Grenouille are going to do that if we contact them soon. And there is precious little we could get from them anyway - if they ARE losing the war then there is little they have, and we know how puny they have been through the game - there are two powers besides GCA rivalling ours, and they will not be exterminated soon. Of course, we can find out their lands through a possible map trade. Quite apart from the fact that a map trade is not going to benefit any of the small civs, let alone a dying one (and thus there is no reason we would expect such a trade), we will be charting the coasts anyway, and an embassy would handily show their capital and all resources they have connected. And what could we do with the land info? There will be no invasion for a LONG time, and by then the info we have will be nearly useless. Also, what are we going to swap for a map? Not our own map, if we value theirs that much, and we have no gold to spare. We can't trade resources until Navigation/Magnetism anyway, and part of the reason that is stated we want contact is because it is felt some may be ahead of us techwise. We are not in a position to trade anything, even if we DID make contact. I see no reason to suicide Galley now - it gives us no benefit over suiciding after using the Galley for missions such as exploring to the North and potentially finding a risk-free crossing, or for maneouvring workers and/or troops where we want them throught the jungle. It is a needless risk where there is no benefit beyond a cheap thrill and a risk of a loss of a unit we have invested several turns into. Only two Galleys were built because we could only spare enough shields for two. If we waste one how long d'you reckon before we replace it? This war won't be easy, and we won't be rolling in disposable shields, even in our GA. Then we'd better make damn sure we use the two we have to their fullest. And while there are other missions, it is folly to waste a Galley on a chance for something we are no better off with than if we waited a short time.

I thought you hadn't picked a side MWIA? You sound pretty entrenched to me.

There's a seperate poll running about where we should send the Galley from. It does not mention sending it NOW. It does not mention sending it at ANY deadline. It hasn't even been decided where or when the Galley will be sent. Please read the first question I polled over:

"Should we send the Princess of Apolyton west on a possible suicide run."

18 people have said "yes, we should." The question doesn't demand when, or where, or how or anything else. It was first decided that we SHOULD send it, and now we're deciding WHERE and WHEN to send it. This is why the discussion was NOT rushed, because it's being taken in very precise and deliberate steps and the vast majority of the active part of our team has weighed in. The issue you're concerned with (immediately sending the PoA west from the island NOW) isn't even a real issue. It doesn't exist.

Also, I will point out that no one but you until last night had ever mentioned anything about the discussion being rushed. No posts, no comments in the chatroom, no PMs, no anything. So saying the camp that is against sending the Galley is against it because the discussion was rushed is blatantly incorrect. Even in THIS thread, MWIA, you're the only one who has said ANYTHING about the discussion being rushed. Even E_T and NYE who disagree with sending the Galley have not mentioned it (though E_T claims to have not decided yet ).

And MWIA, do you think Firaxis would pass at a chance to get Feudalism cheap if all they have to give is their map? Do not be so short-sighted. We don't know what they'll say. For all we know, they could just give us their cities. Until we've talked with them we shouldn't speak in absolutes regarding what other teams will think or do. All I know is that we have a 0% shot at getting anything if they're dead.

	15-08-2003 21:26									#15
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Good chance of backfire, don't want to start off on the wrong foot with the dominant teams by backing their opponents. And the chance that we can contact one of the 2 losers soon is I suppose only 50/50. If we hit a big boy, they probably won't allow us to traverse their waters for free. I think we need to keep things simple until CDG is destroyed. That means no contact with new civs, no mass threads about the wars abroad and no spending our human resources on chats and other such with off continent civs when the fate of our own is up in the air. When All thats left is CFC and Poly, then contact would be good to have. But I see the other four civs as complicating things here. Point for clarification: is the sword to accompany one of the galleys on the suicide mission?

As I said in my previous post, if we don't meet them we have a 0% chance of getting anything from them. The odds are a bit better if we meet them.

We've been trading with combatants all game long. And we're still peachy with both CFC and GCA (and CDG, before their extinction). We have the best FAM department in the game. I'm sure we'll be able to dodge any problems that the complicated diplomacy could throw at us.

What's the worst that could happen if we do make contact? One team sends 30 Galleys with 60 units on a suicide run over the ocean? I don't think so. At the very least we have contact and can work out possible trades. Until Astronomy (or Navigation even, if the ocean is thick enough) we have nothing to fear from getting contact. If things get too complicated, we just shut down the diplo channels and come back when things are rosy again.

	15-08-2003 21:27									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Trip do you think Firaxis would pass at a chance to get Feudalism cheap if all they have to give is their map? Do not be so short-sighted.

You should follow your own advice in that last sentence.

What would you do, if in the middle of the war, someone gave your opponent one of the most important war techs in the game? one that immediately would allow upgrades of defensive and offensive weapons? I think you would remember that for a long time. Add that to your book of grudges and whatnot.

	15-08-2003 21:28									#17
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel You should follow your own advice in that last sentence. What would you do, if in the middle of the war, someone gave your opponent one of the most important war techs in the game? one that immediately would allow upgrades of defensive and offensive weapons? I think you would remember that for a long time. Add that to your book of grudges and whatnot.

And CFC hates our guts for giving GCA Horseback Riding, right?

	15-08-2003 21:35									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Trip And CFC hates our guts for giving GCA Horseback Riding, right?

You expect the civs abroad to behave exactly as the civs here have? Questionable.

	15-08-2003 21:39									#19
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel You expect the civs abroad to behave exactly as the civs here have? Questionable.

So what you're saying is that when we get contact we'll need to discuss things with the teams to assess the situation in an accurate manner before we act, and that we shouldn't make sweeping generalizations about how they'll respond before we're familiar with them...

Right?

	15-08-2003 21:48									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Trip As I said in my previous post, if we don't meet them we have a 0% chance of getting anything from them. The odds are a bit better if we meet them.

Heh. We seem to be arguing in the exact same manner, just from the opposite side of the coin. Me saying there's no difference in getting contact now to soon, and you saying the odds of some benefit emerging are 0 if we don't make contact and at least possible if we do! Well, I found it interesting...

So are you saying that once the decision to send suicide Galleys is reached we will have a separate poll/discussion on when to send them? And where? From the chat the impression I got was that if you supported the suicide Galley idea we were sending the Galley to the West of the Sth Island NOW. So what exactly is the poll for? Just the action to take, and nether the when nor the where? I still believe a suicide Galley mission will be necessary, but I don;t support one now, nor do I necessarily believe from the West of the Southern island is the best place to launch it from. Perhaps, unlike my poll (admittedly) yours is straightforward, but if the above is true, then that's not as implied in the discussions.

And I am only opposed to suiciding the Galley as I believe the call is for it to happen now. I would rather vote against now and then vote differently in the same poll later than vote yes now and have that mean by extension that I voted both yes and now.

	15-08-2003 21:50									#21
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I agree that it should only be one galley for the mission, if we go. Yes, I said "if". I first dismissed the idea of taking out GCA's Iron source for two reasons: 1. They will protect it They know it's on the coast and will protect it. 2. They have a second Iron within their terr right now. I know I would have hooked up that second source by now, just in case. The other options I'm looking at now include other resource denial. They have likey 3 luxes hooked up now. The other resource would be their horses. But, how long would it be before our forces were killed? Would we even have the chance to cut the road before the killed us? We have only 2 swords available to do this mission. If we had 4 NM's I would feel diferently. I honestly don't see how those 2 swordsmen could have a major impact on the war, especially if we dropped them behind the lines. If we were to bring both ships back to home, or near it, and load them with NM's (4) THEN sail towards GCA's resouces, I would support that 100%. It might be enough to send them after the war has started. They would be on a combo resource denial/pillage mission. 4 NM's will be a difficult force for GCA to deal with, especially if we can put together an Army Group "C" shortly after we enter into a GA. This is what I would reccomend for our Galley(s). If not, then I'm still in favor of sending one (PoA) to try to find the other teams. Maybe its just me who sees a great value in finding the others...I hope some don't see it as pure folly.

BF, the key is to keep CFC in the war and fighting. If they are doing that, then GCA will not have as many forces available for protecting that point. With those 2 resorces clearly in the back field and protected by several layers of defences, they will have that area set to be very weak. Especially if they are worried about Us possibly invading them, they will move most of their forces to the front and have that area lightly defended.

Furthermore, IF they have to send units to dislodge the 2 swords, they will be further from the front and not be an issue at the first part of the War. This, IMHO, is good enough of a reason to send them there.

I've done some battle calculations and it would take 4 Vet Horsemen to have an even chance of removing both of the Swords from that mountain.

Using the Zachriel's BATTLE CIVULATION Calculator, With both Swords being Regular (and one IS VET), and being attacked by Vet Horsemen:
1 Horse - 0% wins, 0.65 Survivors, 1.57 Average HP per survivor, We would win 100% with 1.71 survivors at an average of 2.64 HP per survivor. 0.37 of them would retreat. They would have 2% promotion to Elite while we would have 1% of Promotion to Vet.

2 Horses - 8.96% wins, 1.32 Survivors, 1.59 Average HP per survivor, We would win 91.04% with 1.41 survivors at an average of 2.14 HP per survivor. 0.73 of them would retreat. They would have 4% promotion to Elite while we would have 2.41% of Promotion to Vet.

3 Horses - 29.74% wins, 2.05 Survivors, 1.82 Average HP per survivor, We would win 70.26% with 1.00 survivors at an average of 1.83 HP per survivor. 0.96 of them would retreat. They would have 6.45% promotion to Elite while we would have 3.00% of Promotion to Vet.

4 Horses - 52.21% wins, 2.83 Survivors, 2.11 Average HP per survivor, We would win 46.79% with 0.62 survivors at an average of 1.64 HP per survivor. 1.08 of them would retreat. They would have 8.56% promotion to Elite while we would have 3.86% of the same, with a very slight chance of one becoming Elite.

And using the Civilization III Combat Calculator:
Vet Horse Vs Reg Sword on a mountain, Unforted: Horse wins 32% over 4 "rounds", the Sword wins 68% over 3 "rounds".
Vet Horse Vs Reg Sword on a mountain, Fortified: Horse wins 27.1% over 4 "rounds", the Sword wins 73% over 3 "rounds".
Vet Horse Vs Vet Sword on a mountain, Unforted: Horse wins 17.3% over 4 "rounds", the Sword wins 82.6% over 4 "rounds".
Vet Horse Vs Vetg Sword on a mountain, Fortified: Horse wins 16.3% over 4 "rounds", the Sword wins 86.4% over 4 "rounds".

If they do send 4 horses after the 2 swords, that will make them be even fruther from the front and would likely damage most of them. And IF the Swords do complete their mission, they can always load back onto the Galley and even heal up onboard for further missions.

This Is a viable Option, in the time that we have AND the forces avalable.

MoI E_T

	15-08-2003 21:53									#22
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Heh. We seem to be arguing in the exact same manner, just from the opposite side of the coin. Me saying there's no difference in getting contact now to soon, and you saying the odds of some benefit emerging are 0 if we don't make contact and at least possible if we do! Well, I found it interesting... So are you saying that once the decision to send suicide Galleys is reached we will have a separate poll/discussion on when to send them? And where? From the chat the impression I got was that if you supported the suicide Galley idea we were sending the Galley to the West of the Sth Island NOW. So what exactly is the poll for? Just the action to take, and nether the when nor the where? I still believe a suicide Galley mission will be necessary, but I don;t support one now, nor do I necessarily believe from the West of the Southern island is the best place to launch it from. Perhaps, unlike my poll (admittedly) yours is straightforward, but if the above is true, then that's not as implied in the discussions. And I am only opposed to suiciding the Galley as I believe the call is for it to happen now. I would rather vote against now and then vote differently in the same poll later than vote yes now and have that mean by extension that I voted both yes and now.

Making contact now is better than in 50 turns. Just as making contact in 50 turns is better than waiting until Navigation.

MWIA, I don't know what to tell you. There's an original discussion thread about Suicide Galleys, there was a poll about whether to use them, the results say yes. Then there was a new discussion thread set up by BigFree about where to send it from, now there's a poll running about that. I can make another thread about this thread pointing to those threads for you MWIA, if you'd like.

	15-08-2003 22:01									#23
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Yes, but the reasons given by those who support suicide Galleys include "they are there now". That suggests to me that should the decision be "send a Galley" it will be "send a Galley HERE and NOW". I hope you can see my confusion here.

Basically, with me

Suicide Galley = fine
Suicide Galley now = not fine

I have not until your last post seen even a hint that timing was going to be discussed separately. If this is indeed the case then thank you for helping to finally clear things up.

Honestly, I wish people would just read my mind and answer my questions, even if I somehow can;t communicate them in my posts (although they're clear to me )

	15-08-2003 22:03									#24
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Anyways, I'm moving into my new apartment now, I don't know when I'll be back (whenever I get around to buying a new wireless NIC card I suppose...).

'Til lata.

	15-08-2003 22:26									#25
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Trip So what you're saying is that when we get contact we'll need to discuss things with the teams to assess the situation in an accurate manner before we act, and that we shouldn't make sweeping generalizations about how they'll respond before we're familiar with them... Right?

You're the one that started arguing the point to support your case, big guy, not me.

	15-08-2003 22:27									#26
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Trip is why the discussion was NOT rushed, because it's being taken in very precise and deliberate steps and the vast majority of the active part of our team has weighed in. The issue you're concerned with (immediately sending the PoA west from the island NOW) isn't even a real issue. It doesn't exist. Also, I will point out that no one but you until last night had ever mentioned anything about the discussion being rushed. No posts, no comments in the chatroom, no PMs, no anything.

I had felt that the issue was rushed, but then, I had also felt that It was Trip being himself and that the point had become sort of moot. THAT is why I had worked on and posted that map, so the IF we are to make a suicide Run, then we should fully consider all of our options as to where we will do it and maybe find other uses for the Galleys, before they are entirely thrown away.

quote: So saying the camp that is against sending the Galley is against it because the discussion was rushed is blatantly incorrect. Even in THIS thread, MWIA, you're the only one who has said ANYTHING about the discussion being rushed. Even E_T and NYE who disagree with sending the Galley have not mentioned it (though E_T claims to have not decided yet ).

Last night, Ihad voted against the suicide galley thing.

quote: And MWIA, do you think Firaxis would pass at a chance to get Feudalism cheap if all they have to give is their map? Do not be so short-sighted. We don't know what they'll say. For all we know, they could just give us their cities. Until we've talked with them we shouldn't speak in absolutes regarding what other teams will think or do. All I know is that we have a 0% shot at getting anything if they're dead.

It's a gamble, pure and simple. A gamble that we will make it, a gamble that we will find the right civ first and a gamble that we will have anything of value to trade. YES, we should work to make contact, but we do have other things that we can possibly do before hand, before we go the entire route of losing a possible asset at this critical juncture.

MoI E_T

	16-08-2003 00:22									#27
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quote: Originally posted by E_T BF, the key is to keep CFC in the war and fighting. If they are doing that, then GCA will not have as many forces available for protecting that point. With those 2 resorces clearly in the back field and protected by several layers of defences, they will have that area set to be very weak. Especially if they are worried about Us possibly invading them, they will move most of their forces to the front and have that area lightly defended. Furthermore, IF they have to send units to dislodge the 2 swords, they will be further from the front and not be an issue at the first part of the War. This, IMHO, is good enough of a reason to send them there.

Do your calculations take into account the fact that when they see our Galley comming they will plop any old unit on top of that mountain to prevent our landing?


Do your calculations take into account the fact that they have a second Iron resouce insside of the border's and have likely hooked it up already?


I'm think our best shot lies in landing on their Horses or a Luxery.

	16-08-2003 00:27									#28
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I think we need to keep things simple until CDG is destroyed. That means no contact with new civs, no mass threads about the wars abroad and no spending our human resources on chats and other such with off continent civs when the fate of our own is up in the air. When All thats left is CFC and Poly, then contact would be good to have. But I see the other four civs as complicating things here.

This is my position as well... except it should say GCA.

Take it as you will, but as the Foreign Affairs Minister I prefer to keep things as controled and simplified as possible. Now, when we're turns from attacking our neighbor, is not a good time to meet the other teams and make some questionable impressions, or jump quickly into their business and expect them not to jump into ours.

--Togas

	16-08-2003 00:36									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Togas This is my position as well... except it should say GCA. Take it as you will, but as the Foreign Affairs Minister I prefer to keep things as controled and simplified as possible. Now, when we're turns from attacking our neighbor, is not a good time to meet the other teams and make some questionable impressions, or jump quickly into their business and expect them not to jump into ours. --Togas

Since we will be the only team in contact with the othe Continent, we dont have to tell them about things over here that we dont want to. The don't have to know we are at war. If they ask, we can either lie or say that that information is confidential.

	16-08-2003 00:57									#30
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by BigFree Do your calculations take into account the fact that when they see our Galley comming they will plop any old unit on top of that mountain to prevent our landing?

That is true, but then again, they may never see our galley. This is a risk, as with all other things.

quote: Do your calculations take into account the fact that they have a second Iron resouce insside of the border's and have likely hooked it up already?

and then again, they might not have it connected up or are ready to do so at the soonest oppertunity

quote: I'm think our best shot lies in landing on their Horses or a Luxery.

The thing is, no plan survives first contact with the enemy. This is not a fool proof plan (nor would be any other, even our current plans for the main offensive). But it is something to seriously consider, especially if it places GCA in a position were they might have to split their forces while we are on the offensive.

Nothing is accomplished without some form of risk or we wouldn't even be considering offensive operations against someone who has been at war for some time and has ample veteran and elite forces. Even if they denign Iron to GCA for just 1 turn and then take a couple of them with us when they die, then it's still somewhat of a success, as it would put units that could rush to the front, further back from were our main forces are.

It's something that could be done, within the time limits that we are under AND have a use for those 2 swords (who could not get home in time for the main event to kick off).

MoI E_T