19-08-2003 19:13									#31
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Why not? We Orthodox call the Catholics heretics and they outnumber us about five to one.
And so far as I know, the dithering about Constantine trying to reconcile Christianity with paganism is just that, dithering. Many Christian feasts were timed to coincide with Pagan ones, but the purpose in those cases was not reunion but an attempt to eclipse the old religions. Another, if not little known, then at least little-mentioned fact, is that the Christian faith as a seperate entity really came into its own in the reign of Constantine. The council of Nicea standardized the New Testament(which, incidentally, is why all the protestants who talk about following the bible rather than institutions of men are IMO laughably ignorant), established the creed as a precise statement of the faith, and wiped out the Arian heresy, whose real crime was not so much in asserting the humanity of Christ as in denying his eternal nature and calling him a creation of God rather than the unoriginate son. Most of the standard liturgical services, while based on earlier models, were written around that time as well. This was the time of St. John Chrysostom and St. Nicholas. Constantine wasn't exactly a minor chapter in Christian history.
BTW, try to include complex theological phrases in every post you make in this thread. I think it scares Sava away...
Anyway, what do you think of the illumination of the Nous?

	19-08-2003 19:26									#32
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The catholics outnumber jews 200 to 1.

Seriously, though, not to mention that mainstream christianity is heresy to jews, and the concept of the trinity is looked down upon as heretical polytheism in disguise, judaism doesn't accept jesus as a prophet, either. The christian POV on Muhammad is very similar, indeed. The teachings of Jesus can be only valid if he was the messanger of god, and as I said, the POV is rejected by judaism.

For me, personally, I don't care what a person does. But considering oneself as a jew, and thinking jesus is god's messanger is not correct, since that's one of the ways a jew defines himself, "Jesus is not god, messiah, prophet, or whatever". I am perfectly in one line with the party line on that.

	19-08-2003 20:53									#33
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Well, at first glance, if you can have aethist Jews, whjy not Christian Jews? 9though this assumes Jews to be purely a national group that can be distinguished to some extent from religion). Of course, you do have "Jews for Jesus", which may be along the lines of this question: maybe you should look up their website. Personally, I don;t know how it would work.One question is, do you still have to follow the Law, which Christians no longer do. The other thing is that the Messiah is a man, perhaps with devine backing but NOT devine. I doubt you can believe in the Trinity and still consider yourself a Jew following the law, including no God other than the true God.

According to jewish religious law, a born jew remains a jew for life whatever they do or believe. To Judaism, Jews are not members of a religious groups in the western sense - nor are they simply a nation or ethnic group - they are a people whose mission and duty it is to serve G-D and to follow the laws he has set out for them. They do not cease to have this obligation just because they fail to acknowledge it - on the other hand the peoplehood has religious meaning only in terms of the obligation. The same applies, in theory, to a Jew by conversion, though in that case apostasy will lead to questioning the sincerity (and thus validity) of the original conversion.

The folk attitude is somewhat different. The folk for the most part will consider a Jeiwsh atheist to still be member of the jewish people, but not a jew who converts to Christianity. THis is undoubtedly an artifact of the historical circumstance of the Jewish people. For hundreds of years Jews in Europe lived in walled off ghettos, and were limited in their social intercourse with non-Jews. A jew who converted to christianity left the ghetto, and not only gained access to the wider world, but lost his contact with the jewish community (due to the legal limits on social intercourse between jews and christians) He lost contact even with his own immediate family. A jew who simply declared himself an atheist, otoh, stayed within ghetto walls, and continued to share the fate of the Jewish community.

IMHO, this is why the "folk" are quite willing to accept Jewish socialists of many varieties, but generally disavow Jewish communists. The Bolsheviks were much more insistent on the disavowal of Jewish ethnic identiy than were socialists (despite a brief period of communist tolerance for secular Yiddish culture, to advance in the CPSU a Jew had to be 100% Russified)

	20-08-2003 01:31									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Mordoch Maybe, but the group deliberately confuses Jews specificly regarding whether they can remain religious Jews and believe Jesus was the Messiah. You really won't find much confusion among most Jews on this issue. Its just as absurd as Christians who believe "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." and follow Mohammed's teaching in the Koran over those in the Bible.

I don't want to be a pendant, but "Allah" is a generic term for god in Arabic. Christian Arabs call god "Allah". You point still stands though.

My friends who hate the Jews for Jesus hate them pretty much because they see them as self-hating, confused Jews who can't buy into either Christianity or Judiasm.

Azazel:

The trinitarian god is a Catholic concept. I don't know many Protestants that buy into the concept. Frankly, even after doing extensive reading and 10 years of CCD, I still don't quite get it.

	20-08-2003 01:33									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Elok He's up at the Sleague giving me crap for insufficient research, that's where he is. Go up and drag him down. Anyway, since I am the first person to respond to this thread who does not classify religions as different forms of mental illness, the reason for Messianic Jews, as they typically call themselves, is a respect for Christ combined with an unwillingness to give up Jewish tradition in the form of switching sabbaths, celebrating easter instead of passover, abandoning circumcision, etc., which the Christian churches insisted on from the early years. They want to believe, but at the same time they don't want to abandon their identities. Know what I mean?

Messianic Jew is an oxymoron.

	20-08-2003 01:56									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Mordoch Its just as absurd as Christians who believe "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." and follow Mohammed's teaching in the Koran over those in the Bible.

The funniest part is that, according to the Muslim Apocalyptic lore, Jesus will come back from the Heaven as a general fighting for the Muslim armies, and will call all Christians to follow Muslim teachings

(I strongly suggest everybody to read about the Muslim Apocalypse - it really is a peplum of sorts )

	20-08-2003 02:24									#37
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quote: The trinitarian god is a Catholic concept. I don't know many Protestants that buy into the concept. Frankly, even after doing extensive reading and 10 years of CCD, I still don't quite get it.

A. don't expect to get it. It's irrational.
B. there still is that 'jesus is a messiah' issue.

	20-08-2003 02:29									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Timexwatch I Azazel: The trinitarian god is a Catholic concept. I don't know many Protestants that buy into the concept. Frankly, even after doing extensive reading and 10 years of CCD, I still don't quite get it.

youre spending too much time with Unitarians, or Christian scientists, or liberal members of mainstream denominations. Most all the mainstream protestant denoms (lutheran, anglican, presby, methodist, etc) are officially trinitarian. And of course the fundies are very much so. IIRC neither Luther nor Calvin ever rejected trinitarianism.

	20-08-2003 02:31									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: The trinitarian god is a Catholic concept. I don't know many Protestants that buy into the concept. Frankly, even after doing extensive reading and 10 years of CCD, I still don't quite get it. A. don't expect to get it. It's irrational. B. there still is that 'jesus is a messiah' issue.

yeah, when we all know that R. Menachem Mendel Schneerson was really the messiah

We want Moshiach NOW

	20-08-2003 02:33									#40
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Actually, I am the messiah.

BOW DOWN TO ME!!!!

	20-08-2003 02:46									#41
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quote: However, there has always been a substantial controversy about the nature of Jesus, even among Christians. Arianism, which was rejected at the council of Nicea, held that Jesus was a man.

Nope, but that's the common misunderstanding. And pretty old. There were parts of Christianity that didn't accept divinity of the Christ, but in earlier times than Arian controversy started. Arians considered Jesus to be divine, just not (I miss an English word) without a start; they claimed He separated from the Father in some moment in time; the official version is that they (he) both existed from the beginning of time.
Renaissance antitrinitaries (the idea started in Germany and Italy I think, but it was persecuted there, so it spreaded the most in Poland and that's why they were also known as "Polish brothers"; they were formally banned from Poland to Prussia for supporting Sweden during the 1655-1660 "flood" war) were known as "arians", due to the similar misunderstanding as yours

Skywalker, funny, but in bad taste.

	20-08-2003 02:49									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Mordoch You're still missing the point. The belief that Jesus is the Messiah and he has already appeared on earth is a significant departure on its own. Jews believe that the Messiah has not come yet and any departure from that point is heresy and has been treated as such when groups of Jews have decided that various individuals were the Messiah throughout the ages. You could probably make an argument that Christians are actually Jewish heretics, but Jews generally avoid this point since we tend to be outnumbered by the Christians and calling someone a heretic is a good way to piss them off.

Mordoch, whether Jesus was a God, the Son of God, Man or the Messiah or what ever, does not subtract one iota from his teachings. It is a pity that for over 1000 years Christians have "persecuted" Jews for not believing that Christ was the son of God and the Messiah. I also think it is a pity that Jews "persecute" other Jews who believe differently from the main Jewish orthodoxy on this issue. This kind of discrimination and hatred is plain wrong.

	20-08-2003 02:52									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson Skywalker, funny, but in bad taste.

Thank you

	20-08-2003 02:56									#44
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Oh, Elok explained it before me. sorry.
What I wish to ass is that the divine trinity isn't a "catholic concept". It was a Greek philosophical concept first adapted by some of hellenised Alexandrian Jews. Christians took it from them. Which doesn't mean it can't be right. Muslim blabling about it as the main proof against Christianity is silly... Does it matter if God is in 1 or 3 persons? Isn't it about the spirit of religion? Isn't concept of God itself the same
"strange"? Isn't God Almighty? If so, can't He divide himself in as many operation forces as He wishes?

	20-08-2003 03:00									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I also think it is a pity that Jews "persecute" other Jews who believe differently from the main Jewish orthodoxy on this issue. This kind of discrimination and hatred is plain wrong.

The reason there is such dislike of groups such as Jews for Jesus is that they are believed to be run by either individuals who deliberately converted to Christianity some time ago, or by Chritians who are simply trying to trick Jews into converting. The resentment is due to the group's intellectual dishonesty instead of at least being straighforward with its membership on the fact it wants to convert them. The actual general membership of the group is generally viewed as confused and an object of pity. With Christians themselves, I don't see much in the way of actual discrimination by Jews against them, its mostly a view that they are simply misguided, and some resentment of their past persecutions against the Jewish people.

	20-08-2003 03:14									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Anyway, what do you think of the illumination of the Nous?

Orthodox psychotherapy?

http://www.roca.org/OA/162/162e.htm

	20-08-2003 03:23									#47
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Is there a fear in the Jewish community about such conversions? To understand my point here, it is illegal in most Moslem countries to even try to convert a Muslim. In india, Hindu's resent Christians who try to convert Hindu's. But with Jews, I would suspect the instinct to oppose conversions is stronger - almost a survival instinct - given their relatively few numbers and given their historically oppressed status.

	20-08-2003 06:09									#48
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I can't believe you actually looked the phrase up; I was just joking. Actually it's not just pop culture, the nous is an oooooold concept, and in the heart of our theology. Now try "theiosis."
Anyway, you seem to be viewing this as a matter of philosophy, not religion, which might be why you're so puzzled about the vehemence. The statement that Jesus was a cool dude with neat ideas and can't we all agree on that would be okay were it not for the fact that it makes absolutely no sense in a theological context. I'm not justifying persecution, I'm only saying that from some points of view it's a far more significant concept than you make it out to be.
Anyway, I don't think it's borrowed material as he insists, but Heresson is right about the origin of the trinity as a concept. I don't see why it would have to be gleaned from middleman hellenised Jews seeing as the Greeks converted to Christianity rather early.

	20-08-2003 06:15									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Is there a fear in the Jewish community about such conversions? To understand my point here, it is illegal in most Moslem countries to even try to convert a Muslim. In india, Hindu's resent Christians who try to convert Hindu's. But with Jews, I would suspect the instinct to oppose conversions is stronger - almost a survival instinct - given their relatively few numbers and given their historically oppressed status.

There is an extremely large fear of agressive conversions of Jews by Christians. Traditionally in Europe, the Jewish comunities were subjected to highly agressive methods and strategies to force them to convert to Christianity. In the case of Portugal shortly after the beginnings of the Spanish Inquisition in 1492, all the Jews in the country were forced at swordpoint to be "baptised" and therefore be converted to Christianity. This rather ridiculous rite was treated as legitimate by the rest of Christian Europe, and the individuals who were subjected to it were considered heretics and typically killed by agents of the Inquisition if they tried to continue practicing Jewish beliefs.

In more recent times, Jews were compelled to have to listen to priests who would attempt to convert them with whatever arguments they could devise. Jews were also subjected to all sorts of restrictions which were promptly lifted if they converted to Christianity. As late as 1858, Jewish children who had been allegedly baptised in secret by Christian servants were taken from their families and raised as Christians! Family members were often prohibted from having any contact with these children. See this link on the incident involving Edgardo Mortara for more info. You should pick up the book The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara if you want further information on the incident.

The Jewish fear of conversion is so strong that at least traditionally in the Askenazic variant of Judaism, any Jew who converted to Christianity was considered dead and the entire Jewish community would permently refuse to speak to this individual, and this included the person's very own family. Admitedly this practice is not generally done today, but many Jewish families become extremely upset if someone converts to Christianity or marries a Christian. See "Fiddler on the Roof" for a depiction of this phenomenon.

	20-08-2003 06:56									#50
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Mordoch, interesting link. Still, history might explain antipahy to Catholics who attempt to convert Jews. It does not explain the antipathy to the Jews who convert.

	20-08-2003 07:59									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Being Jewish has little to do with your ancestry. Sure, the vast majority of Jews can probably trace back to long lines of Jewish heritage, but there are large numbers of Jews in Africa that did not come (originally) from Israel.

Actually, they can. The vast majority of Jews anywhere in the world can trace at least part of their ancestry to Israel. And they followed the trade routes and spread themselves all over the ancient world. African Jews can trace their ancestry back to Israel through at least two routes.

The Lemba's Jewish ancestors came from Yemen originally, which, before the rise of Islam, had once been a Jewish kingdom (until Ethiopia came and crushed it for supressing Christians). The Fulani on the other hand came south from Egypt, and at one time actually took over Ethiopia. Queen Judith rule Ethiopia for a short time before Christian Numidia overthrew her.

Judaism is a religion. Jewish is an ethnicity.

	20-08-2003 09:00									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Mordoch, interesting link. Still, history might explain antipahy to Catholics who attempt to convert Jews. It does not explain the antipathy to the Jews who convert.

Historically, many Jewish converts to Christianity were the nastiest anti-semites and used their supposed "true knowledge" of Judaism to justify anti-semitism. An example of this phenomenon is the convert JOSEPH PFEFFERKORN.

quote: Obtains Edicts Against Hebrew Books. With a letter from Kunigunde, sister of the German emperor Maximilian, Pfefferkorn went to her imperial brother and succeeded in influencing the emperor, who already had expelled the Jews from his own domains of Styria, Carinthia, and Carniola, to promulgate an edict to the effect that all Jewish writings against Christianity should be destroyed. This edict (dated Aug. 19, 1509) was followed by a second (dated Nov. 10, 1509), ordering the destruction of all Hebrew books except the Old Testament. Pfefferkorn went to Frankfort-on-the-Main in 1509, and on April 10, 1510, the Jews were forced to surrender all the books in their possession.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/v...id=246&letter=P

Some other examples are

quote: Julius III had the Talmud burned in Rome and Venice upon denunciation by Solomon Romano, a converted Jew; Paul IV condemned it again at the request of another convert, Vittorio Eliano; Pius V and Clement VIII did likewise.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewi...#Chapter%20Five

	20-08-2003 14:58									#53
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quote: given their historically oppressed status.

I don't consider Jews especially opressed in history, except for last century. And when they had a chance to opress and force conversions of others, they did it (Idumea or whatever this region was called; Nagran and Yemen).

	20-08-2003 15:06									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson I don't consider Jews especially opressed in history

They were regularily oppressed by Christianty until about the last century. Everytime something went wrong, and the angry mob had to be appeased, the Jews were made scapegoats. They also suffered from strong segregation even at the times they weren't especially oppressed.

However, it is true they suffered from little oppression in the Muslim world. I have no idea for the Jews further East (India, China) and further South (Africa)

	20-08-2003 17:23									#55
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Has anyone here ever read the book of Job? In the opening passages it places God as having a discussion with "his sons " when satan walks in to brew up some trouble.

	20-08-2003 18:31									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor They were regularily oppressed by Christianty until about the last century. Everytime something went wrong, and the angry mob had to be appeased, the Jews were made scapegoats. They also suffered from strong segregation even at the times they weren't especially oppressed.

The same or better as Christians under Muslims. Nothing special. Look on it in another way; Christians were the only religious minority that lived in Europe-until reformation. In comparison to the treatement of pagans or heretics...

	20-08-2003 18:48									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I also think it is a pity that Jews "persecute" other Jews who believe differently from the main Jewish orthodoxy on this issue. This kind of discrimination and hatred is plain wrong.

When is the last time mainstream Jews (not just Orthodox) made Jews for Jesus wear yellow starts? Or live in ghettos? Or limited what jobs they could engage in? Or denied them a say in politics? Or expelled them? Or seized their property? Or sent them to death camps? Feh!

Jews have every right to say that a given opinion is incompatible with Judaism, just as members of every religion do. And when a group like Jews for Jesus targets Jews for conversion, we have every right to resent it, and to create campaigns like Jews for Judaism to present our side of the case to our own young people.

	20-08-2003 18:53									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson The same or better as Christians under Muslims. Nothing special. Look on it in another way; Christians were the only religious minority that lived in Europe-until reformation. In comparison to the treatement of pagans or heretics...

hardly better than Christians under muslims - massacres in Germany in the 1200's, massacres associated with the passage of crusaders through europe. Expulsion from england in the 1290's. Massacres associated with the black death. Expulsion from France in the 1390's. Expulsions from various German states. Expulsion from Spain and Portugal in the 1490's. Massacres in Ukraine in the 1690's.

If it had "only" been limits in dress, limits in jobs, ghettoization the Jews would have been far better off.

And of course the majority of Christians did not live in muslim countries. Whereas the majority of Jews did live in Christian countries.

	20-08-2003 18:56									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor However, it is true they suffered from little oppression in the Muslim world.

Not quite true Spiffor. While massacres/expulsions were less common in the muslim world (but not unknown) they were "dhimmis" subject to special taxes, and various limitations on rights. In some cases this resulted in greater or lesser degrees of effective oppression. They were certainly not equals.

	20-08-2003 19:00									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor However, it is true they suffered from little oppression in the Muslim world.

No it isn't. They didn't suffer as much as Jews in the Christian world, and there were certain times when Jews were able to live peacefully (albeit as second class citizens), but there were also massacres, destruction of synagogues and forced conversions that occured in places like Spain, North Africa and the Middle East (eg. the razing of the Jewish quarter and murdering of 5,000 Jews in Granada in the 11th century.)