18-08-2003 08:48									#1
	Can a Jew be a Christian and still be a Jew? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I ask this question because I was listening to a talk show where the guest is a Jew who had become to believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah. He still considered himself a Jew. But what really got me was his telling of a tale from his youth. He said that he once asked his Rabbi whether Jesus was a Jew. The Rabbi said yes. He also said that Jesus was considered to be a reformer and perhaps even a Prophet. But that the Rabbi never wanted to talk about Jesus again.

Now I understand why Jews do not want to talk about Jesus Christ. It is widely assumed that the basis of Western anti-Semitism is Christianity.

But this still begs the question: If Jews who believe in Jesus Christ as a Prophet continue to be Jews, do they become non Jews if they go one step farther and believe that Jesus was the Messiah? Or do they become non Jews if they believe he was the Son of God?

Again, I thought that the meaning of being a Jew primarily was the same as being Irish or German or French. Doesn't the concept of being a Jew mean that one is a descendant of Jews - tracing all the way back to ancient Israel? Accepting such a definition, it seems irrelevant to being Jewish whether a Jew believes in Jesus Christ.

	18-08-2003 08:58									#2
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The basis of Western anti-semitism is ignorance.

Being Jewish has little to do with your ancestry. Sure, the vast majority of Jews can probably trace back to long lines of Jewish heritage, but there are large numbers of Jews in Africa that did not come (originally) from Israel. It's about faith. I'm not Jewish, so I can't speak from experience, but AFAIK, "Jewish" isn't exactly a race.

But to answer the question... no... Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah. The polar opposite of your scenario would be a Christian that doesn't believe in Jesus... or a Muslim who doesn't believe Mohammed was a prophet

Where's panag when you need him.

	18-08-2003 09:02									#3
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At best you could argue he is a Jewish by ethnicity, but he is either a Christian or some other non-Jewish group religiously. The key division between Christianity and Judaism is whether you believe Jesus was the Messiah or not, and if you cross that line you are no longer a Jew regardless of the other aspects of your religious beliefs.

	18-08-2003 09:06									#4
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He's up at the Sleague giving me crap for insufficient research, that's where he is. Go up and drag him down.
Anyway, since I am the first person to respond to this thread who does not classify religions as different forms of mental illness, the reason for Messianic Jews, as they typically call themselves, is a respect for Christ combined with an unwillingness to give up Jewish tradition in the form of switching sabbaths, celebrating easter instead of passover, abandoning circumcision, etc., which the Christian churches insisted on from the early years. They want to believe, but at the same time they don't want to abandon their identities. Know what I mean?

	18-08-2003 09:12									#5
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Funny I always thought a Jew was someone who followed Judaism, regardless of nationality, ancestry, or heritage.

In that sense, I would assume a person following Judaism and now converting to Christianity would no longer be a Jew.

	18-08-2003 09:12									#6
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a number of different christians keep the Sabbath

Jon Miller

	18-08-2003 09:13									#7
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Well, at first glance, if you can have aethist Jews, whjy not Christian Jews? 9though this assumes Jews to be purely a national group that can be distinguished to some extent from religion). Of course, you do have "Jews for Jesus", which may be along the lines of this question: maybe you should look up their website.

Personally, I don;t know how it would work.One question is, do you still have to follow the Law, which Christians no longer do. The other thing is that the Messiah is a man, perhaps with devine backing but NOT devine. I doubt you can believe in the Trinity and still consider yourself a Jew following the law, including no God other than the true God.

Last edited by GePap on 19-08-2003 at 22:28

	18-08-2003 09:18									#8
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I beleive to be a jew your mother has to be jewish

Jon Miller

	18-08-2003 09:19									#9
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Apparently all it takes to be a Jew is a bloodline through the mother, so it's not a religious thing. Jews can be of any religion or none at all...

	18-08-2003 09:21									#10
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Well, are we talking about the Jewish religion or the Jewish faith? They're related but different things.

	18-08-2003 09:25									#11
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Sure, why not? Jews for Jesus, a religion in Israel. Anyway, if Jews accept Jesus as the Son, they're just accepting another Jew. If they all do it, I'll become a Gentile for Jesus, just for fun.

	18-08-2003 10:11									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Sure, why not? Jews for Jesus, a religion in Israel. Anyway, if Jews accept Jesus as the Son, they're just accepting another Jew. If they all do it, I'll become a Gentile for Jesus, just for fun.

NO!!! Whether Jesus can be considered a Jew for the duration of his life is a question, but if you view him as the Messiah or an object of worship, you are no longer a Jew. Christians for Mohammed would be equally as stupid. Note, while Jews for Jesus is not banned in Israel due to the religious freedoms the country does grant, it certainly is viewed extremely poorly by the general population.

	18-08-2003 10:40									#13
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They're in some sort of grey area, I think...Not fully accepted by/in touch with most Christians (preachers/evangelists are another matter), and distrusted by other Jews...

	18-08-2003 11:21									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Elok He's up at the Sleague giving me crap for insufficient research, that's where he is. Go up and drag him down. Anyway, since I am the first person to respond to this thread who does not classify religions as different forms of mental illness, the reason for Messianic Jews, as they typically call themselves, is a respect for Christ combined with an unwillingness to give up Jewish tradition in the form of switching sabbaths, celebrating easter instead of passover, abandoning circumcision, etc., which the Christian churches insisted on from the early years. They want to believe, but at the same time they don't want to abandon their identities. Know what I mean?

I had no idea that Christianity said that one should not celebrate Passover. Catholics do not celebrate Passover, but to I was not aware of a prohibition on its celebration by Christians.

As to circumcision, what do you mean, "abandoning" circumcision? I am circumcized and I am Catholic.

	18-08-2003 12:15									#15
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Yes but the catholic faith doesn't insist on circumcsion.

Christanity specificaly ignores all of the Moses laws. Stuff about stonning evil goats for adultery and things like that

	18-08-2003 15:09									#16
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I view a jew from 3 different angles.

You can be a jew if you believe in Judaism.

You can be a jew if you have jewish ancestry.

You can be a jew if you feel part of a Jewish nationality (most probably zionistic one, but not necessarily. ie, it's ok to see yourself as part of the "jewish nation" and NOT think Israel has to be your homland.)

Now all these 3 categories are not the same, but they do mix. Most people who join the faith, also join the nationality, as in, see themselves part of the jewish nation (be they zionists or not).

Most people who have jewish ancestry do feel part of the Jewish nationality and until recently, usually observed at least some of the laws of the faith.


But I do accept that a person can be Jewish (or "hebrew" though Jews have mingled with people since ...) and believe in a different god.

Of course when you do that, you usually exclude yourself from the nationality, and in a few generations practically lose the jewish "blood-line" and thus stop being jewish.


But if a group of jews do feel part of the nationality, do only mary other jews by blood-line, but all believe in a different god (or messiah), then they remain jews to me.

However many of my friends disagree, and they don't consider such people Jewish.

	18-08-2003 16:36									#17
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A jew can be atheistic, but cannot hold a different religion other than judaism.

I am an intersted party, though, so don't trust me.

I'd say it's a thing of nationality and culture. people who want to make it religious or ethnic are wrong.

	19-08-2003 01:52									#18
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In Exodus, when the Jews began worshipping false gods, they did not cease to be Jews. They merely sinned.

According to the Rabbi, Jesus was a Jew, albeit, possibly a sinner according to one point of view.

But these posts do confirm that being Jewish is primarily enthnicity througout history.

Would Israel cease to be a Jewish state if a majority come to believe Christ was the Messiah? Not necessarily if they continue to follow their religion in all other matters. Believing that Christ was the Messiah does not require one to believe in a false god.

	19-08-2003 02:32									#19
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I think that it is cultural

like circumcission and maternal line thing

Jon Miller

	19-08-2003 02:59									#20
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I think the view if someone converts to Christianity is that the person isn't counted as "Jewish" for a minyan (you need 10 people+ in Judaism to do certain prayers, such a person wouldn't count), but does not need to convert should he want to be Jewish again.

	19-08-2003 03:17									#21
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The guy sounds like a "Jew for Jesus", which is, at least among my University (40%+ Jewish) a group that is spurned by most observant Jews and disliked among the nominal ones. Every Jew I know has almost gotten into a fistfight with someone from the group.

	19-08-2003 03:22									#22
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I also think, and correct me if I am wrong, that one is "born" Jewish. One is not born Christian. He or she is born German or American, for example. He or she is instead babtized Christian.

	19-08-2003 03:24									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Timexwatch The guy sounds like a "Jew for Jesus", which is, at least among my University (40%+ Jewish) a group that is spurned by most observant Jews and disliked among the nominal ones. Every Jew I know has almost gotten into a fistfight with someone from the group.

Why?

	19-08-2003 04:14									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Why?

"Jews for Jesus" is an intellectually dishonest group who attempt to trick Jews into converting to Christianity. Basicly they tell potentially socially issolated or otherwise viewed to be vulnerable Jews that they can recognize Jesus as the Messiah and still remain religiously Jewish. The group keeps many of the other Jewish customs and religious practices so that Jews don't feel as uncomfortable joining the group. The ultimate goal of the group is to get its members to convert fully to Christianity. What I find so offensive about the group is how instead of letting people know they are trying to convert them like most religious groups, they try confusing people into converting to Christianity without knowing what they are doing.

	19-08-2003 06:47									#25
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Confused? Simply look at this thread. Being Jewish enthically and being Jewish from a religious point of view are not necessarily the same thing, but they seem to be the same thing in the case of in the view of many.

	19-08-2003 06:59									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Confused? Simply look at this thread. Being Jewish enthically and being Jewish from a religious point of view are not necessarily the same thing, but they seem to be the same thing in the case of in the view of many.

Maybe, but the group deliberately confuses Jews specificly regarding whether they can remain religious Jews and believe Jesus was the Messiah. You really won't find much confusion among most Jews on this issue. Its just as absurd as Christians who believe "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." and follow Mohammed's teaching in the Koran over those in the Bible.

	19-08-2003 07:26									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I had no idea that Christianity said that one should not celebrate Passover. Catholics do not celebrate Passover, but to I was not aware of a prohibition on its celebration by Christians.

Well, the resurrection is seen theologically as the new passover, where an innocent dies, this time voluntarily, to save god's people from death. Haven't you ever heard Christ referred to as the "lamb of God?" The early Christian church therefore saw Easter as the ultimate passover and the fulfillment of the law. Similarly, Sunday, as the day of ressurection, became the new Sabbath, at least in some circles. I didn't know there were any Christian groups that worship on Saturdays instead. Just goes to show ya...

	19-08-2003 09:28									#28
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Elok, Sunday became the day of worship at the instance of Constantine, IIRC, at the council of Nicea. He wanted, among other things, to make Christianity compatible with the Roman religion that worshiped on “Sun” day, the day of Apollo, the Sun god. Until that time, Christians observed the same Sabbath as the Jews.

	19-08-2003 09:36									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Mordoch Maybe, but the group deliberately confuses Jews specificly regarding whether they can remain religious Jews and believe Jesus was the Messiah. You really won't find much confusion among most Jews on this issue. Its just as absurd as Christians who believe "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." and follow Mohammed's teaching in the Koran over those in the Bible.

At least accoding to Christianity, God the Father is Yahweh. So, belief that Jesus was the Messiah does not require one to reject God.

However, there has always been a substantial controversy about the nature of Jesus, even among Christians. Arianism, which was rejected at the council of Nicea, held that Jesus was a man.

My own position is that it makes no difference whatsoever whether Jesus was the Son of God or not to find value in his teachings. It is indeed unfortunate that this issue has divided us for two thousand years.

	19-08-2003 10:11									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Ned At least accoding to Christianity, God the Father is Yahweh. So, belief that Jesus was the Messiah does not require one to reject God. However, there has always been a substantial controversy about the nature of Jesus, even among Christians. Arianism, which was rejected at the council of Nicea, held that Jesus was a man. My own position is that it makes no difference whatsoever whether Jesus was the Son of God or not to find value in his teachings. It is indeed unfortunate that this issue has divided us for two thousand years.

You're still missing the point. The belief that Jesus is the Messiah and he has already appeared on earth is a significant departure on its own. Jews believe that the Messiah has not come yet and any departure from that point is heresy and has been treated as such when groups of Jews have decided that various individuals were the Messiah throughout the ages. You could probably make an argument that Christians are actually Jewish heretics, but Jews generally avoid this point since we tend to be outnumbered by the Christians and calling someone a heretic is a good way to piss them off.