22-08-2003 02:16									#91
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Apparently weren't important enough to be discuessed in any of my Jewish or Moslem histories.

Then maybe they had a whacked out sense of importance.

Forced conversion, massacres (including 6,000+ massacred in Morocco in the 1030s), expellings, etc. Funny, I would have considered that mildly important when discussing Jewish history in the Muslim world...

I'm not trying to say that massacres and such opression were inherent in the muslim world. I'm just trying to show that peaceful coexistance wasn't the rule, either.

	22-08-2003 07:09									#92
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Just to add another two cents, I remember a conference on Asperger's Syndrome I went to where they discussed the problem of bullies preying on Aspie kids. A lot of the stuff the lady said sounded like nonsense to me, but one thing made sense: schoolyard thugs pick their victims not because of their clothes, their attitude, their size, their looks, or anything like that, but because said victims are always alone. Bullies classically prefer to beat up on kids who don't have any friends to back them up or call for help. While the situation is obviously different, the same principle might be applied to history. The Jews were victims, yes, but at the same time so were the Gypsies. The common element of both groups is that they were clearly marked as being of foreign origin, tended to be a seperate community, and had no particularly strong advocate to stand for them within society. Native Americans wound up in similar straights, of course, as did the Irish, Slavs, and Nigerian immigrants among some black communities today. The Jews have been screwed over a great deal throughout time, but I would attribute a lot of that to their historical status as a scattered nomadic race. Religious reasons just made a good excuse.

	22-08-2003 14:21									#93
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quote: Pagans were converted. Moslems were expelled. Jews were cheated, expelled, convereted, and slaughtered. Tollerated is not a word I would use to describe Europe's treatment of Jews.

Why not? Each time they were persecuted they could move to some other European state; there was no rule that they should be treated this way. If there was, there'd be no Jews today. You are overestimating your nation's suffering in comparison to others. Do You thing Muslims weren't converted or slaughtered? Or pagans? That's sad that being so touchy on your own people's sufferings, You can't admit that others suffered as well, and even more.

	22-08-2003 18:22									#94
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I agree with Heresson.
After all Pagans have been much more persecuted in Medieval Europe.

Jews where on the one Hand hated, because they were the only ones who could gain money by Lending Money (as it as forbidden to Christians)
But because of this and because many Jews grew very wealthy because of their Loan Business, they normally were also very valuable for the Barons, Counts, Kings et al, who ruled the Country where these Jews lived.
So, although there were sporadically violent outrages against Jews in several Countries, and they were treated as some kind of Outcasts in medieval Society there AFAIK has been no systematic Persecution of Jews in Europe (aside from Nazideutschland in modern times of course).

	22-08-2003 19:57									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST I agree with Heresson. After all Pagans have been much more persecuted in Medieval Europe. Jews where on the one Hand hated, because they were the only ones who could gain money by Lending Money (as it as forbidden to Christians) But because of this and because many Jews grew very wealthy because of their Loan Business, they normally were also very valuable for the Barons, Counts, Kings et al, who ruled the Country where these Jews lived. So, although there were sporadically violent outrages against Jews in several Countries, and they were treated as some kind of Outcasts in medieval Society there AFAIK has been no systematic Persecution of Jews in Europe (aside from Nazideutschland in modern times of course).

you seem to be using persecution as a synonym for extermination, and that is not how the word is used in English. They were subject to systematic discrimination
across the continent from around 1100 AD to around 1800 AD. They were expelled from most of western europe (britain, France, Spain, Portugal and many German and Italian states) from around 1500, and which with the exception of holland, were only readmitted from about 1670 in England, not till at least 1750 anywhere else. Massacres were not systematic, but they were far from rare.

I will accept that the pagans were treated as bad or worse. But after 1400 or so there really werent any pagans left in europe, and from 1100 to 1400 the only pagans left were the Balts, so we're really talking about a different historical period, as far as systematic actions against the pagans.

	22-08-2003 20:00									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST I agree with Heresson. After all Pagans have been much more persecuted in Medieval Europe. Jews where on the one Hand hated, because they were the only ones who could gain money by Lending Money (as it as forbidden to Christians) But because of this and because many Jews grew very wealthy because of their Loan Business, they normally were also very valuable for the Barons, Counts, Kings et al, who ruled the Country where these Jews lived. So, although there were sporadically violent outrages against Jews in several Countries, and they were treated as some kind of Outcasts in medieval Society there AFAIK has been no systematic Persecution of Jews in Europe (aside from Nazideutschland in modern times of course).

FYI - only a handful became wealthy in the loan business. Most jews in Europe prior to emancipation were poor.

	23-08-2003 05:42									#97
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark you seem to be using persecution as a synonym for extermination, and that is not how the word is used in English. They were subject to systematic discrimination across the continent from around 1100 AD to around 1800 AD. They were expelled from most of western europe (britain, France, Spain, Portugal and many German and Italian states) from around 1500, and which with the exception of holland, were only readmitted from about 1670 in England, not till at least 1750 anywhere else. Massacres were not systematic, but they were far from rare. I will accept that the pagans were treated as bad or worse. But after 1400 or so there really werent any pagans left in europe, and from 1100 to 1400 the only pagans left were the Balts, so we're really talking about a different historical period, as far as systematic actions against the pagans.

Yes, I rather thought of systematic Extermination than of Discrimination.

If you think of Discriminaton I have to agree. As I mentiond, Jews were some kind of Outcast in medieval Society and often even had to Live in special suburbs of the Cities, similar to he Ghettos, into which they were put by Hitler (but AFAIK with better Living Conditions than in Hitlers Ghettos). In Germany you find Names like Judengasse or Judenviertel in many historical Citis, which point to the Fact that these were the Sreets or suburbs were the Jews had to live in medieval times.

As for Acions aganst Pagans I think that the Witchhunts were systematic Actions against the last Remnants of the Pagans.
Of course the victims were most of the times normal people, because, as you already mentioned, there were only few Pagans left.
But I think one the Aims of the Witchhunts was, to find and exterminate who referred to more "traditional" beliefs than in Christianity.

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark FYI - only a handful became wealthy in the loan business. Most jews in Europe prior to emancipation were poor.

Yes of course I wouldn´t doubt that there were only very few Jews who grew rich by this Business.
After all you had to have a lot of money firsthand to even think of lending Money to other People (and, as Jews had to pay aditional taxes it was harder to get rich for them than for Christians).

But after all I remember from History Lessons and things I have read, it was just this loan Business, which partly saved Jews from systematic Extermination because it made them (probably those few Individuals who were able to give loans to Kings, Barons, Counts and the like) valuable,
but on the other Hand infuriated Christians (especially those who had to pay interests to Jews, those who liked to open a Loan Business for themselves but couldn´t because they were Christians [and therefore ere jealous] and those who were dreaming of Looting the Houses of the Rich Jews ust to become rich for themselves).

Wasn´t the only reason that Jews were hated in medieval Society (there were other, like mudering Jesus Christ, being told by Clerics that Jews are evil or the reason for the Plague or because just having different Noses than other People), but loan Busines was AFAIK one of the Reasons.

	23-08-2003 05:59									#98
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Just a note: I believe paganism began to be associated with the Devil and was target for erradication by the Church. Judaism was not so associated. Still, as the Jews were not Christians, they we discriminated against and persecuted by a fanatically religious Europe. Additionally, they were persecuted because they charged interest, which was consider to be a sin.

Looking back on those superstitious times, one can only wonder how they could possibly have existed. However, when we observe the Taliban and the Wahabbi's, we see the modern incarnation of ignorance and intollerance.

I discrimination by any society against anyone for religious reasons is perfidious. It is wrong.

	23-08-2003 14:56									#99
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quote: you seem to be using persecution as a synonym for extermination

Isn't extermination even worse than persecution?

quote: They were subject to systematic discrimination

Systematic? Was there any kind of central organisation administrating persecution of them?
(I imagine your reply as: yeah, and it was the catholic church; but if CC wanted to destroy Jews in Europe, it'd be able, and it did not)

quote: I will accept that the pagans were treated as bad or worse. But after 1400 or so there really werent any pagans left in europe, and from 1100 to 1400 the only pagans left were the Balts,

Not quite, there were pagans left in Polabie, crushed in XII century, Estonians and Livonians weren't Balts, and remains of paganity were persecuted for a long time still

quote: so we're really talking about a different historical period, as far as systematic actions against the pagans.

If there were any pagans left, they'd be still persecuted, I assure You

quote: FYI - only a handful became wealthy in the loan business. Most jews in Europe prior to emancipation were poor.

People always judge by an example of a few.

	31-08-2003 15:14									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Sava The basis of Western anti-semitism is ignorance. Being Jewish has little to do with your ancestry. Sure, the vast majority of Jews can probably trace back to long lines of Jewish heritage, but there are large numbers of Jews in Africa that did not come (originally) from Israel. It's about faith. I'm not Jewish, so I can't speak from experience, but AFAIK, "Jewish" isn't exactly a race. But to answer the question... no... Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah. The polar opposite of your scenario would be a Christian that doesn't believe in Jesus... or a Muslim who doesn't believe Mohammed was a prophet Where's panag when you need him.

hi ,

the answer indeed is no , why , simple , the immigration laws have a lot of the 613 in them , and one of those metions clearly " thou shall not bring back people from an other faith or people who worship " idols " " , .......

the law is clear on this , " no " aldo this does not take away there are some small groups in the us and yes even a couple in Israel who believe in j the savior and claim to be jews at the same time , .......

have a nice day