19-08-2003 20:56									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant "Aaah, and a bright future it is. A vice president blown up, a president who doesn't dare leave the capital, and each little warlord that played ball with us running his own little fiefdom. Oh, and the bad guys still lurking in the boonies for when we leave, and the place is still a shithole." Yes, and I love the alternative even more, never attack, let the terrorists train and plan there so we can have more innocent Americans die here. Maybe, just maybe if we leave them alone they will leave us alone, right?

Is it a feature of the two-digit IQ crowd that there are never more than two alternatives, whatever you happen to do, or nothing at all? Or is it just the weather or lack of coffee this morning, or something in the water?

	19-08-2003 20:59									#32
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand No. U.S. troops are not policemen. Yo uopen all new cans of worms, if you take the attitude that they are. That's been seen. Hell. Read Michael's damned logic.

I am inclined to the view that we need a different force, a US Peacekeeping Corps for this work, rather than regular army troops. But until this takes place, we dont have anyone else.

US troops WERE policemen in Germany and Japan after WW2. Occupation is generally one of the roles of an army. Our army may not be well trained for it, but that doesnt provide an alternative.

We are in can of worms whatever we do. The world right now is a can of worms. Its a choice of less bad options. So unless you can show a less bad option, just saying "US troops are not policemen" doesnt provide an answer.

	19-08-2003 21:00									#33
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We've seen how leaving them alone works, haven't we?
Left them alone until a big dump appeared in the middle of Manhattan.

	19-08-2003 21:00									#34
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Is it a feature of the two-digit IQ crowd that there are never more than two alternatives, whatever you happen to do, or nothing at all? Or is it just the weather or lack of coffee this morning, or something in the water?

In all due respect, tossing around terms like shithole doesnt exactly invite sophisticated policy discussion. You want a 3 digit IQ reply, make a 3 digit IQ post.

	19-08-2003 21:01									#35
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Interesting choice of target. Were they that much softer (less secure), or are the culprits counting on them being that much softer (less resolute)?

It's a symbolic target, as the interim government is being recognized by the UN, which is charged under international law to oversee any transitional government. I think the real audience for the attack is the Iraqi people themselves, not the UN.

	19-08-2003 21:03									#36
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark In all due respect, tossing around terms like shithole doesnt exactly invite sophisticated policy discussion. You want a 3 digit IQ reply, make a 3 digit IQ post.

If you have a better description of Afghanistan, or other qualifying garden spots such as the Congo, Somalia, etc., then please share with us your adjective of choice.

	19-08-2003 21:03									#37
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat You mean the police force that we armed and authorized on our schedule?

The police force was armed and authorized behind schedule. The big problem in standing up the Iraqi police quickly was sorting out the Baathists. Which our guys, obviously, were not equipped to do. The Pentagon plan was, apparently, to use the Iraqi National Congress to do the vetting, since they would have the cultural and political knowledge, and local contacts, to do that.

State and CIA were afraid this would leave the INC (and thus the Pentagon) running things, so they vetoed it.

	19-08-2003 21:06									#38
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I am inclined to the view that we need a different force, a US Peacekeeping Corps for this work, rather than regular army troops. But until this takes place, we dont have anyone else. US troops WERE policemen in Germany and Japan after WW2. Occupation is generally one of the roles of an army. Our army may not be well trained for it, but that doesnt provide an alternative. We are in can of worms whatever we do. The world right now is a can of worms. Its a choice of less bad options. So unless you can show a less bad option, just saying "US troops are not policemen" doesnt provide an answer.

Do you REALLY want to get into comparisons of Germany and Japan with Iraq and Afghanistan?
If you do, that's fine; but be advised that I'll blow your little boat plumb out of the water if we go down that road.
Yo better think about it.

	19-08-2003 21:10									#39
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"Is it a feature of the two-digit IQ crowd that there are never more than two alternatives, whatever you happen to do, or nothing at all? Or is it just the weather or lack of coffee this morning, or something in the water?"

Nah, I am not going to engage in pissing fight with a skunk, all you are doing here is pissing, moaning and b!tching with no real solution, doesn't even take a double digit IQ to master those responses.

	19-08-2003 21:11									#40
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat If you have a better description of Afghanistan, or other qualifying garden spots such as the Congo, Somalia, etc., then please share with us your adjective of choice.

A historcially violent, decentralized third world country, which was making major progress in the '50's and '60's, but which was set back by instability since the Daud coup in '74, and especially by the warfare since 1979. Its better off now than it was under the Taliban, its got better prospects than at any time since 1979, certainly. OTOH anyone expecting a Singapore anytime soon is a fool. It has a real possibility of making further progress know, although the optimal US policy is by no means clear.

And, BTW, the history of Afghanistan is quite different from the history of Congo and Somalia, so grouping them together doesnt show great insight.

Also I would note that Afghanistan came apart largely during a resistance to the Soviets, that WE funded, and that accomplished for the West the downfall of the USSR and the liberation of eastern europe. While the Afghans were left to rot. Seems to me we have an obligation from that to help them.

you can call afghanistan a shithole if you wish. Everyone one of us comes from a country that was at some point a shithole, or was settled by immigrants from shitholes. The use of this towards 3rd world countries today tends to reflect either A. Racism or B. An unwarrented implication of the inevitability of their backwordness or
C. An excuse for turning away.

Or sometime more than one of the above.

	19-08-2003 21:14									#41
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Not so. They have had at least 8/24 hours of juice for some time now.

Where? In Baghdad? Basra maybe? That still leaves out the outlying areas, especially the south.

Again, if this were the situation in Detroit, this place would look like Escape from New York. They should be so lucky the citizenry has restrained themselves so far.

	19-08-2003 21:14									#42
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Do you REALLY want to get into comparisons of Germany and Japan with Iraq and Afghanistan? If you do, that's fine; but be advised that I'll blow your little boat plumb out of the water if we go down that road. Yo better think about it.

I did not say that Iraq or afghan was like Germany or Japan. I merely questioned your assertion that US troops are not policemen. Even if they are that does not imply all policing situations are the same, nor does it imply that using them as police is always justified. Maybe using them as police in Iraq is NOT justified - but that case needs to be made with something other than the assertion that they are not policemen.

	19-08-2003 21:15									#43
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"you can call afghanistan a shithole if you wish. Everyone one of us comes from a country that was at some point a shithole, or was settled by immigrants from shitholes. The use of this towards 3rd world countries today tends to reflect either A. Racism or B. An unwarrented implication of the inevitability of their backwordness or
C. An excuse for turning away."

Like I said our old West could be considered a sh!thole until civilized or for that matter, old New England from the British point of view.

	19-08-2003 21:15									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay Where? In Baghdad? Basra maybe? That still leaves out the outlying areas, especially the south. Again, if this were the situation in Detroit, this place would look like Escape from New York. They should be so lucky the citizenry has restrained themselves so far.

Actually the outlying areas are getting the same or better power than under Saddam. Thats cause Saddam allocated the most power to the cities, which the coalition is not doing.

	19-08-2003 21:23									#45
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BTW, this items is being lost in the news of the bombing
(CNN)
"• Former Iraqi vice president Taha Yasin Ramadan is in U.S. custody, Kurdish and U.S. officials told CNN Tuesday. Ramadan was the senior of two vice presidents in Saddam Hussein's regime and had been with Saddam since the start of his rise to power. He was number 20 on the coalition's most wanted list and the 10 of diamonds in the playing card deck of suspects. "

	19-08-2003 21:23									#46
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After the attack, CNN and FoxNews both showed footage from inside the building when the attack took place (there had been a press conference inside, and they got it from some affiliate or other, I assume).

It's very... umm.. dramatric.

	19-08-2003 21:25									#47
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark US troops WERE policemen in Germany and Japan after WW2. Occupation is generally one of the roles of an army. Our army may not be well trained for it, but that doesnt provide an alternative.

Was our army well trained for it for the aftermath of WW2?

	19-08-2003 21:29									#48
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark The police force was armed and authorized behind schedule. The big problem in standing up the Iraqi police quickly was sorting out the Baathists. Which our guys, obviously, were not equipped to do. The Pentagon plan was, apparently, to use the Iraqi National Congress to do the vetting, since they would have the cultural and political knowledge, and local contacts, to do that. State and CIA were afraid this would leave the INC (and thus the Pentagon) running things, so they vetoed it.

Since the occupation phase, by definition, comes after the warfighting phase, we had more time to plan for and settle occupation issues like this than we had to plan for the warfighting issues.

More to the point, I was responding to Sloww's troll about this being a failing of the Iraqi police, when we've dictated the pace and manpower they're allocated, and we still directly and indirectly control them.

BTW, one of the main concerns with the INC was that they didn't have the degree of knowledge and contacts claimed, since it was run by a bunch of expats who'd long been removed from the realities of Iraq under Saddam.

	19-08-2003 21:35									#49
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I still wonder why the UN building was attacked. I suppose it was less defended than most USUK facilities, and the terrorists had an easier time placing the bomb and escaping the blow.

	19-08-2003 21:37									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant "Is it a feature of the two-digit IQ crowd that there are never more than two alternatives, whatever you happen to do, or nothing at all? Or is it just the weather or lack of coffee this morning, or something in the water?" Nah, I am not going to engage in pissing fight with a skunk, all you are doing here is pissing, moaning and b!tching with no real solution, doesn't even take a double digit IQ to master those responses.

So your "real solution" is to blurt "Yeah, let's do nothing, that worked real well!"

I suppose we could apply the same standard of "do it the way it is, because that's better than doing nothing at all" to things like the Bay of Pigs or to Jimmy "I came, I saw, Iran" Carter's hostage rescue fiasco. Or is it just that Bush jr's policies are subject to that little standard of convenience? Makes it much easier to duck questions of performance, doesn't it?

	19-08-2003 21:40									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor and the terrorists had an easier time placing the bomb and escaping the blow.

Unless it was a suicide attack. That would signal an increasing role of islamists in the resistance.

	19-08-2003 21:41									#52
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The UN complex was not that fortified (I don;t think it was fortified at all), so it made a good high visibility target.

The main UN administrator for Iraq is known to have been injured and supposedly still trapped in the building.

	19-08-2003 21:42									#53
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Unless it was a suicide attack. That would signal an increasing role of islamists in the resistance.

It was a suicide truck bombing: truck drove up to the building, then it exploded.

	19-08-2003 21:42									#54
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Since the occupation phase, by definition, comes after the warfighting phase, we had more time to plan for and settle occupation issues like this than we had to plan for the warfighting issues. More to the point, I was responding to Sloww's troll about this being a failing of the Iraqi police, when we've dictated the pace and manpower they're allocated, and we still directly and indirectly control them. BTW, one of the main concerns with the INC was that they didn't have the degree of knowledge and contacts claimed, since it was run by a bunch of expats who'd long been removed from the realities of Iraq under Saddam.

the expats claim they were in regular contact with allies on the inside. And the claim that the expats didnt have knowledge was made by State and CIA, who seem to be less well placed for knowledge of the inside than the INC.

More time for planning - well yes, but the two different sides of the admin had conflicting plans, and the conflicts were never resolved. The State plan was apparently to give up control to the UN and thus use foreign troops - DoD vetoed. Dod's plan was to use the INC - State and CIA vetoed. In the absence of agreement it was hoped some conventional Iraqi army units would come over intact and act as police - but that didnt happen - then it was time to improvise.

	19-08-2003 21:44									#55
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Unless it was a suicide attack. That would signal an increasing role of islamists in the resistance.

It apparently was a suicide attack. Im not sure that proves it was Islamists - there could well be suicidal Baathist deadenders.

	19-08-2003 21:44									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I still wonder why the UN building was attacked. I suppose it was less defended than most USUK facilities, and the terrorists had an easier time placing the bomb and escaping the blow.

The UN is the designated authority under international law for recognizing and forming the transitional government, so it makes sense from a Baathist perspective as a target. It doesn't make sense to focus strictly on US and UK facilities, because they're heavily defended already. By expanding the number and type of targets, the US and UK either have to dilute their coverage on the facilities they defend now, or else concede that they can't secure all the major soft targets. Either way, not a bad outcome for the attackers.

	19-08-2003 21:47									#57
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Unless it was a suicide attack. That would signal an increasing role of islamists in the resistance.

there also seems to be an assumption that the Baathists and the Sunni fundamentalists are completely distinct. In fact senior Sunni clergy where appointed by Saddam and supported him in their sermons. Saddam apparently cooperated with Al Ansar al Islam against common enemies.

Theres something in between "saddam is responsible for 9/11" and the apparent belief that the Baathists have never cooperated with Islamists.

	19-08-2003 21:47									#58
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I don;t buy into the notion that only Baathists are attacking the US. I am not saying that there is any sort of popular resistance, but there are many more groups in Iraq looking to influence the situation with violence. Suicide truck bombings are a common Isdlamist tool, and they have the most expertise in that.

	19-08-2003 21:50									#59
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I don;t buy into the notion that only Baathists are attacking the US. I am not saying that there is any sort of popular resistance, but there are many more groups in Iraq looking to influence the situation with violence. Suicide truck bombings are a common Isdlamist tool, and they have the most expertise in that.

I have seen numerous reports that foreign islamsts have been involved. There may be Iraqi Sunni islamists involved - although its not clear that there is a clear bright line between them and the Baathists, as i discuss above. There still seems to be no violence from the Shiites, even from the followers of Sadr.

	19-08-2003 21:53									#60
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The Shia gain little from violence at this point. As far as they can see, they are big winners from all of this, and ca wait the US out. Of course, if at the time a new government is formed and a lot of safeguards are put in to prevent Shia political domination of the country (assuming in the long term the Kurds decide not to break away), then some Shia leaders may see it as the US colluding with the Sunni to keep them from power, and then things get messy.