19-08-2003 23:28									#121
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quote: does that mean that they're out of here?

	19-08-2003 23:30									#122
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quote: I'm about ready to go into roid-rage after this comment.

Shouldn't take steroids...



Sava: He means Israel.

	19-08-2003 23:30									#123
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quote: Originally posted by GePap "reduced too"? Killing 200 people by blowing up a good sized block is not "reduced to" anything. Just getting that much explosive together is dififcult. As for taking out the WTC: the difficulty was planning, not execution, which is porbalby always the case. The atatck on the Cole probalby took less planning, and even if it was a warship, the method of attack and place was so that they guys met no resistance.

killing with a truck bomb is (IIUC) much easier than coordinating a multiplane hijacking. Heck even a couple of lousy rightwing militia types were able to pull off a truck bombing. And bringing that truck up to a bar in Bali is clearly easier than bringing it up to an embassy or govt building. And from all ive read getting explosives in Indonesia was not difficult at all pre-Bali.

	19-08-2003 23:32									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: apparantly, militant islamic fundies from all over the mideast are descending upon Iraq in huge number much the same as in Afghanistan during the Soviet incursion. does that mean that they're out of here?

so far they seems to be getting Syrians and lebanese, and maybe a few Jordanians and Saudis - not Pals, sorry, Az. Theres talk about guys going there from Pakistan, but no evidence ive heard about of any pakis on the ground in Iraq.

	19-08-2003 23:32									#125
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It's not vengence, if that guy is dead set on continually hitting you, it is no longer vengence, it becomes a RESOLVE to put an end to it, whatever it takes.

	19-08-2003 23:35									#126
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quote: Sava: He means Israel.

ah.... I wasn't sure what he meant.

I think Baghdad is especially attractive because it's a lot easier to attack sensitive targets. Israel has had decades of experience in stopping terrorist traffic. The US is getting it's ass handed to them in terms of security in Iraq.

	19-08-2003 23:36									#127
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Flash - Serge Vieira de Mello, Chief UN representative in Iraq, has died from wounds in the attack.

Last edited by lord of the mark on 19-08-2003 at 23:42

	19-08-2003 23:49									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Olaf: I bet even you would get jumpy and possibly make a mistake in such a circumstance. You order the car to halt but he shows no sign of breaking but just keeps speeding towards your position. Is he a terrorist or is he some yahoo who wants to show how macho he is? You have two possibly three seconds to figure it out and then it's to late and you could be dead.

Killing innocent people "just in case" will not stop terrorism, just increase it. How can that be so hard to understand? Being jumpy is not an excuse. My buddy who has been on 7 UN peace-keeping missions in Lebanon and Bosnia were probably jumpy too, but he never killed anyone despite being under fire at numerous occations.


I read a first-hand report by a journalist who had visited a site of a road-block shooting as the one you describe. The Americans killed some guys in a car which caught fire and burned with the bodies inside. The soldiers just walked away, without even asking who they just killed or why. The locals had to put out the fire and clean up the mess.

	19-08-2003 23:49									#129
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"The US is getting it's ass handed to them in terms of security in Iraq"

We have been there, what 5 months. Does time mean anything to you guys.

	19-08-2003 23:53									#130
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quote: We know we can't ignore the situation, and everybody wants to just critize, since the wars began we still haven't had a terrorist attack on this soil since 9/11, so you guys can ***** all you want about Bush policies, but so far it appears to be working.

I wouldn't go talking about time.

	20-08-2003 00:00									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre Killing innocent people "just in case" will not stop terrorism, just increase it. How can that be so hard to understand? Being jumpy is not an excuse. My buddy who has been on 7 UN peace-keeping missions in Lebanon and Bosnia were probably jumpy too, but he never killed anyone despite being under fire at numerous occations.

In bosnia the UN peacekeepers failed to stop the massacre in srebinica. Peace wasnt established until the US intervened.

In Lebanon the UN failed to stop Hezbollah from shelling israeli civilian settlements across the border. There isnt peace there to this day.

I hope we will be more effective.

	20-08-2003 00:02									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant It's not vengence, if that guy is dead set on continually hitting you, it is no longer vengence, it becomes a RESOLVE to put an end to it, whatever it takes.

We are already chasing "that guy". So what new things would we see?

	20-08-2003 00:06									#133
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark killing with a truck bomb is (IIUC) much easier than coordinating a multiplane hijacking. Heck even a couple of lousy rightwing militia types were able to pull off a truck bombing. And bringing that truck up to a bar in Bali is clearly easier than bringing it up to an embassy or govt building. And from all ive read getting explosives in Indonesia was not difficult at all pre-Bali.

You think getting those explosives into East Africa was difficult? or into Yemen? Or that driving, floating up to the tagerts was extremely difficult? The embasy bombngs were harder cause of coordiantion in two sites, though most killing happened at only one. So I personally don't see what made Bali such a pushover compared, no mater how you decide to classify the target.

I agree, coordination is what matters, planning is what is most difficult. In that repect, we have hit Al qaeda by removing seasoned operatives and hitting money flow. BUt neither in sufficent amounts ot make people, even you, all that confident about their weakness.

	20-08-2003 00:07									#134
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quote: Originally posted by GePap We are already chasing "that guy". So what new things would we see?

i presume the gloves coming off with the Saudis.

	20-08-2003 00:10									#135
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark ... In Lebanon the UN failed to stop Hezbollah from shelling israeli civilian settlements across the border. There isnt peace there to this day. I hope we will be more effective.

Yeah, right - as if you were in Lebanon. One terrorist act and you went home. Iraq is going to be a new Vietnam.

	20-08-2003 00:12									#136
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quote: Originally posted by GePap You think getting those explosives into East Africa was difficult? or into Yemen? Or that driving, floating up to the tagerts was extremely difficult? The embasy bombngs were harder cause of coordiantion in two sites, though most killing happened at only one. So I personally don't see what made Bali such a pushover compared, no mater how you decide to classify the target. .

so then why havent they attacked another US ship, or embassy? It would certainly show their strength much better than a nightclub bombing. Because theyre trying to spread terror among the hindus of Bali? why, pray tell? what do they accomplish by that, that justifies risking (and as it happens, gutting) their entire southeast asian network? To make australians afraid - who can just decide to stay home and be safe? Wheres the strategy? I can only conclude that the strategy was to bring down the indon economy by knocking out tourism - but as ive said - and as you have not responded to - that was tried by islamists in Egypt for years, and it did not work. It is a retreat from the AQ strategy of rallying the islamic world by demonstrating US weakness.

	20-08-2003 00:13									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre Yeah, right - as if you were in Lebanon. One terrorist act and you went home. Iraq is going to be a new Vietnam.

don't count on it.

	20-08-2003 00:15									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre Yeah, right - as if you were in Lebanon. One terrorist act and you went home.

We were in Beirut, not on the border. It was the UN's responsibility to maintain peace on the border - which the UN failed to do. I would consider that before holding up the UN performance in Lebanon or Bosnia as models for Iraq.

	20-08-2003 00:16									#139
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Iraq could be another Lebanon though.

	20-08-2003 00:17									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre Yeah, right - as if you were in Lebanon. One terrorist act and you went home. Iraq is going to be a new Vietnam.

Vietcongs had never bombed US cities. Times are different now.

	20-08-2003 00:17									#141
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"We are already chasing "that guy". So what new things would we see?"

In an extreme case, and of course that depends on the hit the USA would take of another 9/11, but I wouldn't rule out massive military action in the ME against other nations, Saudi or Iran and Syria.

	20-08-2003 00:19									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant In an extreme case, and of course that depends on the hit the USA would take of another 9/11, but I wouldn't rule out massive military action in the ME against other nations, Saudi or Iran and Syria.

With what forces? Oh, and if you imagine anyone in Washington would for a moment seriously back an attack on SA..well, .

	20-08-2003 00:22									#143
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Iraq could be another Lebanon though.

dont count on that either.

	20-08-2003 00:23									#144
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Another 9/11, we would have a military buildup like WW2. Back then we mobilized 16 million troops for a population of 170 million. How many troops can we mobilize this time at a population of 290 million?

	20-08-2003 00:23									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Vietcongs had never bombed US cities. Times are different now.

Iraq didn't either.

	20-08-2003 00:23									#146
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GePap,
Again, you underestimate the RESOLVE of this country, if Saudis are funding it and the Americans are mad enough, it will happen. And if thousands of muslims want to fight us in Saudi(if that is where we attack), they better bring a whole lot of body bags. Americans will not take these hits(if they continue) forever, why should they?

	20-08-2003 00:26									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Another 9/11, we would have a military buildup like WW2. Back then we mobilized 16 million troops for a population of 170 million. How many troops can we mobilize this time at a population of 290 million?

As if the economy wasn't down the drain already...

	20-08-2003 00:27									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre Iraq didn't either.

Our enemies in Iraq don't have big powers supporting them. The reason we gave in Viet Nam was that we didn't really want to face off China and USSR.

	20-08-2003 00:30									#149
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"Another 9/11, we would have a military buildup like WW2. Back then we mobilized 16 million troops for a population of 170 million. How many troops can we mobilize this time at a population of 290 million?"

Exactly,
We had increases in military recruitment after 9/11 and I believe with another 9/11 that recruitment numbers would jump exponentially, and we have a lot of troops in the world that don't need to be where they are.

	20-08-2003 00:31									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre As if the economy wasn't down the drain already...

Our currrent economy is suffering from a mild case of depression, sort like before WW2. I don't recall WW2 hurting our economy badly.

In addition, conscription can absorb millions of unemployed.