20-08-2003 00:34									#151
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"As if the economy wasn't down the drain already"

And what exactly do you think another 9/11 would do, increase our economy? The damage will be done, so we might as well have a massive buildup.

	20-08-2003 00:42									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Our enemies in Iraq don't have big powers supporting them. The reason we gave in Viet Nam was that we didn't really want to face off China and USSR.

How is this linked to your statement that VC didn't bomb American cities and my reply that Iraq didn't either. Changing subjects, are we?

	20-08-2003 00:46									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant "As if the economy wasn't down the drain already" And what exactly do you think another 9/11 would do, increase our economy? The damage will be done, so we might as well have a massive buildup.

A massive buildup of new skyscrapers preferably.

	20-08-2003 00:57									#154
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark \ Given the deep, and profoundly ideological divisions in the administration (outlined above) I dont see how waiting any further would have resolved the division over the occupation strategy.

Who in the administration is in charge? You don't let competing ideological camps among advisors prevent you from making unequivocal policy choices.

quote: And at what point would you have made this change - In early March? Retreating at that point would very likely have made re-entry in a few months politically impossible, would have left the Kuwaitis and Qataris in the lurch and very vulnerable, and would have undercut the Pal-Israeli peace process and other US initiatives.

Preliminary RFQ's and studies for a few Iraqi rebuilding projects were issued by USAID back in November, which means they were initiated at least a few months earlier. The notion of invading Iraq didn't suddenly pop up back around March or even January, either. It's not a "retreat" if you don't prematurely commit your troops and reinforce that commitment before you've decided on how you're going to follow up.

	20-08-2003 01:21									#155
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Who in the administration is in charge? You don't let competing ideological camps among advisors prevent you from making unequivocal policy choices. Preliminary RFQ's and studies for a few Iraqi rebuilding projects were issued by USAID back in November, which means they were initiated at least a few months earlier. The notion of invading Iraq didn't suddenly pop up back around March or even January, either. It's not a "retreat" if you don't prematurely commit your troops and reinforce that commitment before you've decided on how you're going to follow up.

1. who should be in charge? - well President Bush obviously - I think it his fault that this disharmony is not being managed.

2. Change in January? but i think in January they expected to resolve the dispute by March. Should Pres. Bush have seen that it wasnt being resolved - yes. But then the right action would have been to choose one course or the other(IE the State approach or the Dod approach) , not to postpone the invasion. ISRT that Kuwait and Qatar had already openly supported the US position by January.

	20-08-2003 01:23									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre Iraq didn't either.

No. But al qaeeda did, And AQ was born in the swamp that is the mideast. And Iraq is the starting point for draining that swamp. So dont be disingenous.

	20-08-2003 01:36									#157
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quote: Our currrent economy is suffering from a mild case of depression, sort like before WW2. I don't recall WW2 hurting our economy badly.

Eh? We just suffered the mildest recession on record and are back to growth.

	20-08-2003 01:38									#158
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"but i think in January they expected to resolve the dispute by March."

The decision must have been made in summer or autumn 2002.

"AQ was born in the swamp that is the mideast"

And currently you are trying to fight malaria by extending the swamp.

	20-08-2003 01:39									#159
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BBC:

"But, for the most part, reaction to the blast worldwide was one of indignation and determination to press on with the UN's work.

Such terrorist incidents cannot break the will of the international community to further intensify its efforts to help the people of Iraq

Mexico's UN Ambassador, Adolfo Aguilar Zinser, called on the Security Council to "show its strength" in a display of unity before an "abominable act of terrorism".

	20-08-2003 01:40									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre I read a first-hand report by a journalist who had visited a site of a road-block shooting as the one you describe. The Americans killed some guys in a car which caught fire and burned with the bodies inside. The soldiers just walked away, without even asking who they just killed or why. The locals had to put out the fire and clean up the mess.

More likely they thought it might be a car bomb and ran for cover. Maybe you don't know this but the terrorists often have a small event to attract attention (thus getting people to crowd around) then they set off the main blast. They just love that trick.

In any event if a person doesn't want to get shot the solution is very simple. DO AS THE GUY WITH THE GUN TELLS YOU TO DO! Walk slowly, don't make any quick or sudden moves, make sure you are in plain sight & that you look people in the eye (that will make doublely sure they've seen you and will not be surprised). It's common sense but I guess common sense isn't so common or else you wouldn't have idiots refusing to stop at check points and trying to mow through them at 70 mph.

	20-08-2003 01:42									#161
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark No. But al qaeeda did, And AQ was born in the swamp that is the mideast. And Iraq is the starting point for draining that swamp. So dont be disingenous.

So, as a comparison, if Columbian terrorists attacked Americans, you would go invade Nicaragua beacuse they are part of the "Hispanic swamp"? How logic...

	20-08-2003 01:44									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant GePap, Again, you underestimate the RESOLVE of this country, if Saudis are funding it and the Americans are mad enough, it will happen. And if thousands of muslims want to fight us in Saudi(if that is where we attack), they better bring a whole lot of body bags. Americans will not take these hits(if they continue) forever, why should they?

Becuase cheap gas and economic growth are more important than a few thousand dead. As for your "American people", these are the same people who can be convinced that many hijackers were Iraqis, that WMD's were brimming in Iraq, so forth and so on. They are also the ones that are as likely not to vote as to vote. I remember al the calls for blood right ater 9/11., In the end they went no where. A seocnd attack would not bring them about either: if only becuase a second attack is less shocking thasn the first. If the first faile dto rbing armageddon, so will the second. (realize of course that Iraq is an example of the gov. using anger as a tool, not the end result of anger).

	20-08-2003 01:52									#163
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Becuase cheap gas and economic growth are more important than a few thousand dead. As for your "American people", these are the same people who can be convinced that many hijackers were Iraqis, that WMD's were brimming in Iraq, so forth and so on. They are also the ones that are as likely not to vote as to vote. I remember al the calls for blood right ater 9/11., In the end they went no where. A seocnd attack would not bring them about either: if only becuase a second attack is less shocking thasn the first. If the first faile dto rbing armageddon, so will the second. (realize of course that Iraq is an example of the gov. using anger as a tool, not the end result of anger).

You didnt see the op-ed yesterday by Sen Kyl and Sen Schumer?? - yes Kyl and Shumer together !!!!!!
There is tremendous concern and anger about Saudi - and has been since 9/11 - the admin has held it off, insisting that Saudi was now cooperating. By the time the problems with their cooperation were becoming apparent, the Iraq war was in sight, and many (not all) of those most concerned about Saudi were content to put Saudi off till Iraq was done. Now Saudi again seems to be cooperating - lots of terrorists arrested or killed, real actions against money flows, and at least some talk about incitement. IF there is another big attack there will be a major renewed focus on Saudi. At the very least, their "cooperation" will have to be both major and public. IF there is little or no cooperation, the pressure to do something about Saudi will be intense. Of course if this were to happen while Iraq is still unresolved this would be very difficult - both in terms of our agenda for the region (where we want a New Iraq established before attempting reform Saudi) and in terms of available US troops.

	20-08-2003 01:54									#164
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Oh, yes and two senators get you? Zip.

Saudi Arabia has been, and is a vital US ally in the region. that has not changed, as least not as long as most of our interest in the area remain unchanged, which they do.

	20-08-2003 01:55									#165
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GePap,
"One death is a tragedy, a thousand is a statistic", is the idea you promote, if we fail to let one death move us anymore we are not any better than the terrorists.

If you do not understand this all the righteous arguments in the world won't convince you, and that is truly too bad, because the next terrorist casualty could be your 3 year old daughter, that's how I think everyday when I argue these points, as if it was my daughter on that bus in Israel.

	20-08-2003 01:57									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre So, as a comparison, if Columbian terrorists attacked Americans, you would go invade Nicaragua beacuse they are part of the "Hispanic swamp"? How logic...

if their orgin was due to the culture and politics of the region, and the best place to begin to change that culture was Nicaragua, then yes. As it happens, we supported democracy in latin America under Jimmy Carter, and democracy has spread throughout the region. Just as democracy has spread through non-Communist east Asia. But it has not spread (with some exceptions) through the greater middle east (morocco to Pakistan). And there has been not merely the absence of democracy, but the absence of rational economic policies. And a general sense of failure and frustration, and turning away from the modern world and towards radical islam. And we have to deal with that.

	20-08-2003 01:58									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant GePap, "One death is a tragedy, a thousand is a statistic", is the idea you promote, if we fail to let one death move us anymore we are not any better than the terrorists.

Actually terrorist are the sort to which every little thing is a deady insult that must be avenged with blood.

quote: If you do not understand this all the righteous arguments in the world won't convince you, and that is truly too bad, because the next terrorist casualty could be your 3 year old daughter, that's how I think everyday when I argue these points, as if it was my daughter on that bus in Israel.

Oh yes, you are the only one with a family in the whole world, pity you! Iwas in my home in NYC on 9/11, so I don;t need you to tell me about thinking someone I know has been killed in terrorism. I myself don;t think arguing like I might have a personal stake in anything makes sense, becuase somoene with a personal stake is many times the last person who should do somehting, both for their own good and for the greater good.

	20-08-2003 01:59									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin More likely they thought it might be a car bomb and ran for cover. Maybe you don't no this but the terrorists often have a small event to attract attention (thus getting people to crowd around) then they set off the main blast. They just love that trick. In any event if a person doesn't want to get shot the solution is very simple. DO AS THE GUY WITH THE GUN TELLS YOU TO DO! Walk slowly, don't make any quick or sudden moves, make sure you are in plain sight & that you look people in the eye (that will make doublely sure they've seen you and will not be surprised). It's common sense but I guess common sense isn't so common or else you wouldn't have idiots refusing to stop at check points and trying to moo through them at 70 mph.

I agree that people driving though check points at 120 km/h are idiots or obviosly try to hide something. But I bet many people are shot just because the Americans can't speak Arabic. I don't mean speak fluent Arabic, just shout the basic roadblock commands.

Each innocent victim will create a terrorist or two.

	20-08-2003 01:59									#169
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Oh, yes and two senators get you? Zip. Saudi Arabia has been, and is a vital US ally in the region. that has not changed, as least not as long as most of our interest in the area remain unchanged, which they do.

How is it vital? To protect against expansion by Iraq. Check.

To balance against Iran, given that Iraq is in the hands of an adversary. Check.

For oil. Check.

Saudi has been vital. Welcome to the world post April 9.

	20-08-2003 02:02									#170
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To keep oilc heap: since Iraq isn;t doing squat with that yet..

Keepoing Iran in check: Iraq is weaker now than ever, more open to Iranin infleunce than before: whoops.

SA was never a buffer to Iraqi expansion: why US forces went there in the first place.

To keep the lid on the Israeli Palestinian front.

Iraq is decades away from replacing SA as a worthwhile ally, assuming it doesn;t fall apart in the meantime.

Sorry, but we need the sauds as much as we ever did today.

	20-08-2003 02:08									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant ... the next terrorist casualty could be your 3 year old daughter, that's how I think everyday when I argue these points...

That's how many of the people in Iraq think when they become terrorists. The Americans killed their family for no reason, now they want revenge, even at the cost of their own life. At least according to the military analyst whom I heard on radio news today.

	20-08-2003 02:19									#172
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quote: Originally posted by GePap To keep oilc heap: since Iraq isn;t doing squat with that yet.. Keepoing Iran in check: Iraq is weaker now than ever, more open to Iranin infleunce than before: whoops. SA was never a buffer to Iraqi expansion: why US forces went there in the first place. To keep the lid on the Israeli Palestinian front. Iraq is decades away from replacing SA as a worthwhile ally, assuming it doesn;t fall apart in the meantime. Sorry, but we need the sauds as much as we ever did today.

f

for the moment. Makes it pretty clear how much of an incentive the Saudis have to see us fail in Iraq though, dont it? One of the reasons when i hear someone comment on Iraq i check for ties to the Saudis.

We need them a little bit less than we did yesterday, and a little bit more than tomorrow.

	20-08-2003 06:07									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre How is this linked to your statement that VC didn't bomb American cities and my reply that Iraq didn't either. Changing subjects, are we?

If VC pulled off something like 9/11, we would be fighting them to the bitter end. I doubt that even Russians and Chinese would continue supporting them. Even though the Vietnamese had MORE reasons than Al Qaeda to attack us, they didn't and won the sympathy of the American public in the end.

As someone has already pointed out, Iraq, despite its non-involvement in 9/11, is in the same league as all other freaks in Middle East.

	20-08-2003 06:11									#174
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Them ragheads are all alike, huh?

So is this a "war on terrorism" or a war on arabs who don't like us, or a war on Islamics who don't believe in the glory of the "American way" or what's the deal?


(note for the PC pukes: the term "raghead" used above is used sarcastically to illustrate a point.)

	20-08-2003 06:22									#175
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For any who care, the judge from my courthouse who is over in Baghdad left the hotel about 90 minutes before it was blown up.

	20-08-2003 08:00									#176
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Either bring the troops home, or level Baghdad. Those are the 2 options, as I see it. Iraqi's need to take some responsibility for what's happening. In any case, withdrawl from the U.N. is still needed.

Brilliant analysis right there

	20-08-2003 08:45									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre Each innocent victim will create a terrorist or two.

Does that go for the victims of the terrorists? Are there a bunch of iraqi freelancers hunting the UN bombers now?

	20-08-2003 10:53									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler For any who care, the judge from my courthouse who is over in Baghdad left the hotel about 90 minutes before it was blown up.

Too bad so many others were there, though.

	20-08-2003 12:31									#179
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I hope this tragedy gets across to people that the UN is in the front line, It's not just a bunch of w#nkers at some talkfest in New York.

	21-08-2003 01:22									#180
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I came across this opinion piece in the Lebanon Daily Star, and felt the need to post it. Somebody in the Arab world - with a voice - is digusted. It gives me a faint glimmer of hope.

quote: How did we degenerate to such a terrible extent? The bombing of the UN headquarters in Iraq on Tuesday raises a range of questions as complex and deep as the angry human emotions that every decent person felt when they first heard the news and saw the television images. The bombing tells us something about the ugly situation in Iraq four months after the war ended, but it also tells us something much more profound and worrying about conditions in the modern Arab world that would permit such things to happen. The United Nations staff who were killed and injured included some of the finest, most dedicated international civil servants anywhere in the world; they also comprise a large contingent of scrupulously honest and diligent Arab and other Middle Eastern specialists ­ individuals who represent perhaps the most hopeful point of continuous interaction between this region’s chronic conflicts and the international community’s best attempts to resolve them. Killing the finest men and women from the Middle East and the world who serve in incredibly trying situations is an act so degenerate that it defies any rational explanation. It is, first and foremost, a call to all in this region to look deep into our souls, to answer two related questions: How could the societies of the Middle East have deteriorated politically and morally to such a degree that this sort of attack has become routine? And where are the institutions, the forces, and the men and women of the Middle East ­ in religion, politics, education, and thought ­ who should stand in the face of such national deformity and stop the bleeding from generation to generation? The price being paid for the acquiescence and silence of those who should lead with moral and political legitimacy is already too high. The madness of a few among us who would do such deeds as the Baghdad bombing is the tip of an iceberg that permeates the wider circles of our cultures and countries. The atrocity and terror that have plagued Baghdad recently ­ against Iraqi, other Arab, Western, and now UN targets ­ emanate from a deeper wellspring of criminality that cannot be ended by military means alone, or by foreign intervention. The United Nations is one of the crucial parties that can help to address this sickening trend; the people of the Middle East are more crucial, and they must act now.