22-08-2003 17:38									#121
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*sigh* it does look like the roadmap is dead this time around, though... Powell is demandind that Arafat crack down on Hamas, while Bush is being Sharons ***** again... And so the horror continues.

Well, I hope it makes the Eli's and Siro's of the world happy...

	22-08-2003 17:42									#122
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We love you too Gnu.

	22-08-2003 18:35									#123
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu They held the ceasefire until Israel violated it. Repeatedly. What more do you want?

Always good for a laugh, Gnu.

	22-08-2003 18:47									#124
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu They held the ceasefire until Israel violated it. Repeatedly. What more do you want?

Yes, but they didn't consider the ceasefire gone when they killed 20 Israeli civilians and wounded many more?

	22-08-2003 18:48									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor 1. The replacement of the indigenous population with settlers has long stopped being systematic. Most often, settlements are not decided by the Israeli government, and sometimes they aren't even tolerated by the Israeli government. Besides, if this process was "systematic", you can be sure no Palestinian would be living in Palestine right now... The Palestinians are not able to resist the Israeli military might, when it's used at full force (and for a reason: how can you beat a disproportionate and modern army with untrained people armed with Kalashnikovs and rocket launchers ?). Had Israel decided to remove the Palestinians "systematically", the situation we'd have would be way different. We wouldn't even think of an independent Palestinian State today 2. The Palestinian people is not getting destroyed with the existing settlements. At the contrary, it focuses the nationalistic hatred for the Israeli (which are indeed invaders when it comes to settlements). And this nationalistic hatred is the core element of the emerging Palestinian national identity. In some way, the settlements favor the Palestinian national identity... I hardly see how it destroys the people.

To sum it all up: if the Israelis wanted to get rid of the Palestinians, there wouldn't be any Palestinians.

	22-08-2003 18:51									#126
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu *sigh* it does look like the roadmap is dead this time around, though... Powell is demandind that Arafat crack down on Hamas

You mean, as stated in the roadmap?

Gnu, have you ever thought of becoming a comedian?

	22-08-2003 18:52									#127
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He wouldn't be a good one. Comedians have to have more than one joke.

	22-08-2003 18:57									#128
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu *sigh* it does look like the roadmap is dead this time around, though... Powell is demanding that Arafat crack down on Hamas,

Do you even know what the road map says?

	22-08-2003 19:46									#129
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu *sigh* it does look like the roadmap is dead this time around, though... Powell is demandind that Arafat crack down on Hamas, while Bush is being Sharons ***** again... And so the horror continues. Well, I hope it makes the Eli's and Siro's of the world happy...

i know you guys have already pointed this out but its really too rich to pass up.


Powell demands that arafat crack down on Hamas - precisely as called for in the road map - and gnu thinks that this signals the death of the roadmap.

Amazing. Can somebody please explain to me again how 2 + 2 = 5 ?

	22-08-2003 19:47									#130
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It does, for relatively large values of two.

	23-08-2003 05:26									#131
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Skywalker:

quote: Yes, but they didn't consider the ceasefire gone when they killed 20 Israeli civilians and wounded many more?

Right after Hamas declared the truce, Israel announced that they would keep killing palestinians that were "ticking bombs". Hamas announced that they would retaliate for each killing, and would not consider the retaliation a braking of the truce.

This is quite important for anyone familiar with muslim history: willfully breaking a hudna is something that carries a lot of weight. It's not only immoral, but actually an affront against Allah.

So when Israel kept killing palestinians during the hudna, Hamas declared that they had to retaliate. The two bombs a week ago were retaliations for two individual killings. Israel kept up the assassinations, and the IJ declared that they had to retaliate again.

Israel could have avoided all three of these bombs by adhering to the ceasefire. It decided not to do so.

Israel could have kept the roadmap going by avoiding escalation after each retaliation. It decided not to do so.


And this is why Hamas didn;t break the hudna: They adhered to the rules they stipulated from the beginning. They never once attacked Israel during the hudna without the attack being an answer to an Israeli killing.

	23-08-2003 05:29									#132
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quote: To sum it all up: if the Israelis wanted to get rid of the Palestinians, there wouldn't be any Palestinians.

To sum it all up: a crime isn't a crime if you could possibly do something worse. Rape isn't an actual crime unless you kill the victims. Mugging isn't an actual crime unless you take all the money the victim has.

Come on, surely you see just how illogial that is.

	23-08-2003 05:30									#133
	Got spare money?

I'm pointing out that the objective of the Israelis obviously isn't genocide, because if it was, there wouldn't be any Palestinians.

	23-08-2003 05:31									#134
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quote: You mean, as stated in the roadmap? Gnu, have you ever thought of becoming a comedian?

No, but have you considered giving lessons in quoting out of context?

I mean, ending the quote by a "," sign is a little low even for a pro-israeli, isn't it?

	23-08-2003 05:32									#135
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quote: I'm pointing out that the objective of the Israelis obviously isn't genocide, because if it was, there wouldn't be any Palestinians.

And your premise is flawed. Take a look at the above posts again, and I think you will see why.

	23-08-2003 05:34									#136
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How is it flawed? 1. I don't think it is 2. I'm not wading through four pages of posts to find out why you think it is.

	23-08-2003 06:58									#137
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It's scary man, you dunno the places I've been.

Oh and yeah after the bus bombing the 'variously trained' cadets in Rafah were shooting at crisp packets (and my head).

Israel is not trying to wipe out the Palestinians, however their policies are contradictory in places (moving along a peace process, but still building walls), so will the real Israel please stand up?

	23-08-2003 10:25									#138
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu 1) So, since Hitler didn't manage to kill ALL the jews, the holocaust really wasn't that bad?

Hitler engaged in a systematic extermination of Jews. The Ottoman empire engaged in systematic extermination of Armenians. During the Rwanda conflict, the Tutsis engaged in a systematic extermination of Hutus.
The fact that Jews, Armenians and Hutus have not been completely exterminated doesn't make these crimes any less genocides.

There's a big difference with what Israel does though: Israel's policy is not to systematically exterminate / expel the Palestinians. The bahaviour of Israeli forces would be widely different if such was the intent and the policy. The Israelis are not engaging in genocide by any standard, except your twisted ones.

2) There was no Palestinian independentist/nationalist movement before Israel. The humiliations Israel has brought to the Palestinians gave them a common cause, and helped shape their common identity as Palestinians (and not as Arabs / Jordanians / whatever). I don't like seeing this identity being shaped by hatred, but the emergence of such a national identity thanks to the Israeli oppression is a reality nonetheless.

Edit: In short, Israel hasn't destroyed the Palestinian people, and Israel hasn't even tried to do so for some time now.

So again, if you could please stop twisting the word 'genocide', and if you could please stop using banalizing this grave word, I'd thank you.