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Dom Pedro II
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The College of New Jersey
Nov 1999
time: 05:30
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Sikander... I recommend you to a book called The New Jackals by Simon Reeve written in 1998... that's where I got a large portion of this information, but by no means all... a lot of the rest of it came from a New York Time's book called Out of the Blue about September 11th.
And no, it's not like a butterfly flapping its wings. We're not talking chaos theory here. The government most certainly had a very integral role in the creation of terrorists. My father worked with the CIA for years, had family members worked FOR the CIA, knew people involved with the CIA, and so he is very familiar with CIA tactics, and they DID DO these kind of things. And if you don't believe it, then you're just plain naive.
And yes, the French got the Jackal YEARS afterwards. And that was only because they cut a deal with the country he was in at the time. Trying to remember which one, but I can't think of it off-hand. Either way, it was a matter of convenience.
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
Seriously!! Think about it.
And please dont strawman my position |
which position?
the one where u believe in starving out the arabs until they like us.
or the one where u discount many factors of the human condition most likely leading to conclusions based on incomplete and oversimplified assumptions.
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Dom Pedro II
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The College of New Jersey
Nov 1999
time: 05:30
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quote:
It's so hard to create a conspiracy to take the place of a logical policy which is for the most part truthfully arrived at and reported. So stop trying. |
You are honestly grasping at straws here... or maybe you just don't like reading. I don't know. That's your problem, not mine.
The passage you quoted in no way suggests any kind of conspiracy. It merely suggests that the USA changes interests very fast whereas other countries (Europe in particular) tend to stick with their alliances. It's not even labeling it as wrong. Sometimes quickly changing policy is a very shrewd decision, but certainly you cannot deny that such action isn't characteristic of US policy.
And if you want further proof of that, look at the 1995 insurrection against Saddam... or rather the would-be insurrection. We financed and helped train a group of rebels to overthrow Saddam and then only a few days before the rebellion was supposed to begin, Bill Clinton withdrew all US support. The rebels were quickly slaughtered thereafter and their heads were put in Baghdad on display. So if you think I'm just trying to attack the Republicans for Mid East policy, think again.
quote:
Aside from the fact that we would have been fools to allow OBL to take over Kuwait, his "30,000" Jihadists would have been defeated even more convincingly than the Iraqis were in 1991 in Kuwait.
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I never said it would've been smart for the Saudis to agree to this.. and I never said bin Laden would have won. What I said was that he offered, and that was meant to support the fact that he was no fan of Saddam.
Last edited by Dom Pedro II on 21-08-2003 at 00:10
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
We withdraw economically and socially from Arab states. They wont starve as can still help them indirectly, but a pinch in the arse associated by our absense is all that is required.
I fail to see how anger and grief should affect the way we deal with cultures/nations etc. Name those incomplete and oversimlified assumptions. |
wow ur trying to be pretty manipulative here if u want me to go from "only logic" to anger and grief, kinda leaving a lot outta the middle there eh captain?
and its irrelevant if u steal their money or simply give them less. all they see is u reacting to their culture and them becoming poorer. I understand this may not be "logical" but that doesn't seem to matter to the end result.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:30
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If you called me Spock, shouldnt it be commander?
quote:
ur trying to be pretty manipulative here if u want me to go from "only logic" to anger and grief
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How is that manipulative? I dont want you do to anything, you do and think what you want, I couldn't care less, I'm merely debating a point. And yes, I do think foreign and social policies should be dictated solely by logic and economics.
With regards to your last point, its a matter of spin. If you want the pull out to fail, its pretty easy. If you want it to succeed, you spin it and say "well your terrorists wanted us out, and so you have it". Of course thats not the case, but hey, a little white lie never hurt anyone.
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
If you called me Spock, shouldnt it be commander?
How is that manipulative? I dont want you do to anything, you do and think what you want, I couldn't care less, I'm merely debating a point. And yes, I do think foreign and social policies should be dictated solely by logic and economics.
With regards to your last point, its a matter of spin. If you want the pull out to fail, its pretty easy. If you want it to succeed, you spin it and say "well your terrorists wanted us out, and so you have it". Of course thats not the case, but hey, a little white lie never hurt anyone. |
u can't get beyond the end result. ur action caused the arabs to starve. yes u can TRY to spin it. but starving ppl don't really care for that type of spin. if u understood more than logic this would be simple.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:30
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quote:
Originally posted by The diplomat
Haider is a Nazi. There is a difference between a fascist and a conservative. Conservatives do not equal fascist.
Newt Gingrich, Krauthammer, Buckley, Limbaugh, Tom Delay, they are all conservatives, and they are far from racist. |
Mr Haider is keen to go to litigation with those who accuse him of being a Nazi or a Neo-Nazi; can't say I blame him. His conservatism, with a little trimming of the more overtly racist elements, would fit in quite well with mainstream European conservatism and American conservatism. The Verbotsgesetz law in Austria made Neo-Nazi activities a criminal offence- it also makes it possible for Mr. Haider to sue people accusing him of being a Nazi (shouldn't that be Neo-Nazi, by the way, diplomat? I don't think Haider is quite old enough to have been a member of the Nazi Party) or having links with Neo-Nazi organisations.
There is a difference between a 'Nazi' and a fascist. Mussolini's fascists may have been allies of Nazi Germany, but their ideologies were not identical.
I have never accused conservatives of being fascists- it's as tedious as conservatives reaching knee-jerk for the 'left fascist' or 'politically correct' epithets any time they spot something or someone they disagree with.
A typical ploy of conservatives is to identify an enemy/ies- either external or internal. When Thatcher was Prime Minister, Britain's Conservatives had a field day- there were external 'enemies', real and imagined- the Argentineans, the I.R.A. in the Six Counties and mainland Great Britain, and immigrants from the Commonwealth.
http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/...s/toryright.htm
Internal 'enemies' were landed or second or third generation British born offspring of immigrants, gays and lesbians and workers. A compliant (indeed, mostly aggressively conservative) Press aided the government's cause no end.
It's quite a useful political tool- especially when there is internal unrest and massive unemployment- and when the Prime Minister was the most unpopular Prime Minister since the Second World War. It usually goes in partnership with appeals to tradition, or supposedly traditional values, and a hearkening back to days when things were simpler, or better, some nostalgic vision of a supposed golden age, based on nothing more than wishful thinking- Thatcher's publicly voiced desire for a return to 'Victorian values' - presumably those values that existed before women won the right to vote, the Married Woman's Property Act, child labour laws, and when underage prostitution was rife.
But then, Mrs. Thatcher was no historian, and believed there was no such thing as society. Ahh, bless.
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:30
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
My dry detached academia leads me to make logical, rational beliefs and opinions. I will not succumb to believing a course of action is best, simply because emotions say so. They are insufficient, no evidence, indeed, will not hold up under any critical analysis. I am not ignoring my emotions, not going vulcan on you, indeed my reason is a slave to my personal disposition which is pacifist and relativist - based on love!  . However, opinions, and actions are the domain solely of logic, for their soundness, not to mention mental stability! 
It is people making decisions based on emotion that have caused so many c0ck ups in history, not least terrorism and war itself!! Game theory (a theory that relies on the assumption that everyone is logical), predicts that if everyone was rational, there would be no war!! Nonetheless, except on the personal level, one should always use logic to deal with emotion, not by ignoring emotion but by including it. Hence my sociological solution. |
You spew copious quantities of meaningless drivel constantly. You remind me of a batch of puppies, minus the intellectual gravitas and cuteness.
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20-08-2003 23:42
Firing ignore cannons! You seem incapable of providing me with a reasonable argument, beyond ad hominems and strawmen, so I wont waste my time.
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