19-08-2003 23:36									#1
	Can we kick some real terrorist ass please? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Bombing against a UN building in Iraq. A bombing against a bus in Jerusalem.

Innocent people are dying because of these barbaric terrorist monsters.

When are you leftist going to realize that you can't appease, you can't play nice, you can't negotiate? If you try being nice all that happens is more innocent women and children die at the hands of these terrorist monsters.

It's time to get serious folks. Iraq and Afghanistan were a good start, but we are far from done.

IT'S TIME TO GET REAL. IT IS TIME TO BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF THESE TERRORISTS ONCE AND FOR ALL!

	19-08-2003 23:37									#2
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nice... it's the liberals fault...

quit listening to Rush, it's making you stupid...

	19-08-2003 23:38									#3
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How does on get rid of something as amorphous as terrorism "once and for all"?

That's like declaring a War on Bad Thoughts or Missing Socks.

	19-08-2003 23:40									#4
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Where are the pitch forks and torches?

	19-08-2003 23:41									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay How does on get rid of something as amorphous as terrorism "once and for all"? That's like declaring a War on Bad Thoughts or Missing Socks.

terrorist are not ghosts. They are have real training camps, real infrastructure, money, personel, etc...

We cut off the funds, we obliterate the training camps, the kill the terrorist leaders.

	19-08-2003 23:42									#6
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short of marching millions of ground troops and conquering the entire Islamic world, terrorism isn't going to go away with military action... killing a few here and there doesn't do much except for create more terrorists. Chickenhawks don't know how to win a war on terror.

	19-08-2003 23:42									#7
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If you can name the terrorists individually and their exact locations, go ahead. I don't think anybody here is against beating up terrorist's ass. But the thing is, it is not quite as easy to target as some national army.

	19-08-2003 23:43									#8
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quote: We cut off the funds, we obliterate the training camps, the kill the terrorist leaders.

Let us know when you figure out a way to do that without creating exponentially more terrorists.

	19-08-2003 23:43									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Sava nice... it's the liberals fault... quit listening to Rush, it's making you stupid...

Like the libs are making sense. Just talk to the terrorists and ask them pretty please not to kill people, all the while more innocent civilians are blown to pieces.

	19-08-2003 23:43									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor If you can name the terrorists individually and their exact locations, go ahead. I don't think anybody here is against beating up terrorist's ass. But the thing is, it is not quite as easy to target as some national army.

no read the first post... liberals and leftists just want to appease Osama bin Laden. In fact, Osama is living at the Democratic Party Headquarters.

	19-08-2003 23:44									#11
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It means that all of you liberal pu**ies need to stop paying heed to totalitarian dictatorships which support, fund and breed terrorism.

America is realizing that it can't stay friends with Saudi Arabia, and have began taking steps and they start getting results (Israeli newspaper says that Saudia secrtly contacted Israel for info about terrorists in Saudia, promising to start taking care of them).

Why can't the euro's realize the same about Syria and Iran?

	19-08-2003 23:46									#12
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat We cut off the funds

Stop buying oil, and half the problem is gone. Make sure the Arabs don't want to support affiliated organizations, and the other half of the problem is gone.

quote: We obliterate the training camps

Where are they ? Will you bring up the bombers if the "training camp" is a house in the middle of a village / city ?

quote: the kill the terrorist leaders.

Better interrogate them first. Again, that supposes that you find them. It's not exactly easy... unless you consider every Arab to be a terrorist leader ?

	19-08-2003 23:48									#13
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Well, c'mon, dip... You guys had them on the payroll for such a long time, why don't YOU talk to them?

	19-08-2003 23:52									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov It means that all of you liberal pu**ies need to stop paying heed to totalitarian dictatorships which support, fund and breed terrorism.

Edit: the first sentence was completely wrong . It is not liberal Euro pussies who paid heed to dictatorships, but geostrategic interests. We pussies only oppose more slaughter, that'll eventually lead to more hatred and more terrorism. We aren't fond of despotisms, no more than conservative blowhards.

quote: America is realizing that it can't stay friends with Saudi Arabia, and have began taking steps and they start getting results (Israeli newspaper says that Saudia secrtly contacted Israel for info about terrorists in Saudia, promising to start taking care of them).

At last, it was about time. Since when did any liberal here said we should appease Saudi ?

quote: Why can't the euro's realize the same about Syria and Iran?

For the time being, Syria and Iran are calm, despite a very bad past wrt terrorism. We don't know everything that's happening behind the scenes, but I wouldn't be surprised that Syria gets some pressure from Europe to maintain the Hezbollah idle. It is another strategy: better have idle terrorist groups under control than wild terrorist groups running galore.

	19-08-2003 23:54									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II Well, c'mon, dip... You guys had them on the payroll for such a long time, why don't YOU talk to them?

Who did we have on our payroll, the Saudis?

Look, I think we should threaten to cut ties with Saudi Arabia. We could try to buy our oil from Russia instead. They have a huge untapped source in Siberia.

We can't be dependant on ME oil. We should do everything possible to eliminate our dependency.

And we should cut ties with countries that aid terrorists. We should be consistent. We shouldn't talk tough about terror and then turn around do business with them.

	19-08-2003 23:55									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov It means that all of you liberal pu**ies need to stop paying heed to totalitarian dictatorships which support, fund and breed terrorism.

Like Pakistan. Oh wait, they just kill people in Kashmir, so why bother.

	19-08-2003 23:55									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor If you can name the terrorists individually and their exact locations, go ahead. I don't think anybody here is against beating up terrorist's ass. But the thing is, it is not quite as easy to target as some national army.

1. said al adel, AQ's most recent operations chief, Saad bin Laden, Usama's son and assistant, and Sulaman Abu Goath (SP?) AQ spokesman and finance chief are apparently all in Iran. I dont know where in Iran, but presumably the Ayatollahs who run Iranian security do.
In addition Iran funds Islamic Jihad.


2. There have been movements of terrorists identified from Syria to Iraq.


3. Hamas is a terrorist organization. The European Union has refused to put its political wing on the list of banned terrorist organizations, apparently due to French opposition.

4. Saudi Arabia has funded Hamas. Israel reports such funding continues

5. Osama bin Laden and in all probability his right hand, zawahiri, are in the Northwest frontier province of Pakistan. Pervez musharaff is unable to take control of that province, fearing the disintegration of the Pakistani state at the hands of islamists. At some point the US will have to address that problem. One hopes that those who now are so eager to go after terrorists will join the US when that happens

6. Saudi Arabia has finally begun to address its domestic al qaeeda cells, in the wake of the Riyadh bombing. They have not yet addressed the problem of anti-western incitement from state appointed Imams. Hopefully those here will support us in pressuring them on that.

7. The US now holds several hundred terrorists in guantanamo, and is bringing them before military tribunals as appropriate. Hopefully everyone here will support that process.

	19-08-2003 23:57									#18
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quote: Who did we have on our payroll, the Saudis?

No, actually I was referring to two other guys... what were their names again??....

Oh yeah! Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein!

	19-08-2003 23:58									#19
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark 3. Hamas is a terrorist organization. The European Union has refused to put its political wing on the list of banned terrorist organizations, apparently due to French opposition.

Which is indeed a completely wrong move. You cannot discuss with the Hamas, since this organisation cannot and will not make any concession. Today terract shows it again

	20-08-2003 00:01									#20
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quote: 7. The US now holds several hundred terrorists in guantanamo, and is bringing them before military tribunals as appropriate. Hopefully everyone here will support that process.

It would be a lot better for our international image to try these terrorists under our own justice system. It's part of the democracy we're trying to export, so why not prove that it works?

	20-08-2003 00:04									#21
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quote: Originally posted by rev It would be a lot better for our international image to try these terrorists under our own justice system. It's part of the democracy we're trying to export, so why not prove that it works?

because we dont want AQ to know who we hold. We dont want the accused to go into open court, where they might signal what theyve told, or even what theyve been asked (allowing their friends to take "back-bearings") because we dont want them to be able to call their pals in gitmo as witnesses, enabling said pals to find out whats going on, and thus reducing effectiveness of interrogations.

By the way, military tribunals ARE part of our justice system, and will follow rules that give defendents rights to counsel, to present evidence, etc.

	20-08-2003 00:09									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Sava nice... it's the liberals fault... quit listening to Rush, it's making you stupid...

Thoughtfully put.
What's your reason, a natural aptitude?

Knocking them down, one at a time. All that can be done.

	20-08-2003 00:09									#23
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"will follow rules that give defendents rights to counsel, to present evidence, etc."

No free choice of Counsel, at least that was the last thing I've heard. Calling of witnesses very restricted. Rules of evidence unclear. Rules of disclosure unclear. In short, a cangoroo court.

As for the reasons you give, so the next step is military cangoroo courts for organized crime?

	20-08-2003 00:09									#24
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quote: because we dont want AQ to know who we hold.

As if they don't know already...

	20-08-2003 00:12									#25
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat terrorist are not ghosts. They are have real training camps, real infrastructure, money, personel, etc... We cut off the funds, we obliterate the training camps, the kill the terrorist leaders.

You mean, like we are trying now, at least in Afghanistan?

sigh:

Terrorism, like war, is a reality of modernity. islamist terrorism won;t end until a positive and efefctive alternative is given. Or you could try genocide, but that in the end only utterly destroys ones credibility, their soul, and any claim they ever had to being "right".

How many people killed today? 20-30? Perhaps it is a good sign that people get so worked up about political violcene that leads to that many (which is not that many) deaths.

	20-08-2003 00:15									#26
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark By the way, military tribunals ARE part of our justice system, and will follow rules that give defendents rights to counsel, to present evidence, etc.

No, they are a brand new invention of this admin. As for how fair they are, The Ecnomist has already done a good job at showing how paltry and poor an example of democratic justice those things are.

	20-08-2003 00:17									#27
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Not to forget that those aren't ordinary military tribunals but will run under some "modified" rules.

	20-08-2003 00:22									#28
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You can't ever make terrorism go away... and even if you can make the Muslims stop committing terrorist acts, it will STILL go on by some OTHER group.

Like those wackos in Japan, or another Tim McVeigh.

The War on Terror is like a War on Murder, its a noble idea, but you're kidding yourself if you ever think it'll be "over".

I remember seeing a great political cartoon, which I saved. It says "Think Overwhelming Military Force Can Stop Terrorism? Look at Israel:" And it a drawing of bodies being carried away from the charred skeleton of a bus. Based on a real photo.

	20-08-2003 00:25									#29
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "will follow rules that give defendents rights to counsel, to present evidence, etc." No free choice of Counsel, at least that was the last thing I've heard. Calling of witnesses very restricted. Rules of evidence unclear. Rules of disclosure unclear. In short, a cangoroo court. As for the reasons you give, so the next step is military cangoroo courts for organized crime?

any counsel they want as long as the counsel has security clearance, IIUC. Is that asking too much, for trials at which top secret intelligence is likely to be presented? That someone could quibble over that leads precisely to the original point of this thread - that some people arent taking this seriously.

	20-08-2003 00:29									#30
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quote: Originally posted by GePap You mean, like we are trying now, at least in Afghanistan? sigh: Terrorism, like war, is a reality of modernity. islamist terrorism won;t end until a positive and efefctive alternative is given. Or you could try genocide, but that in the end only utterly destroys ones credibility, their soul, and any claim they ever had to being "right". How many people killed today? 20-30? Perhaps it is a good sign that people get so worked up about political violcene that leads to that many (which is not that many) deaths.

well terrorism pretty much ended in Egypt, without a positive and effective alternative. So im not sure your premise is right. I would also note that we have islamic terrorism in Indonesia, where there is democracy and freedom for islamist parties, more so than jordan or egypt where there is not. But even if it is, the acts of terror tend to undermine any positve and effective alternatives, as seen from Palestine to Iraq, and from Pakistan to Indonesia. So it is necessary to fight it at the same time as we build an alternative.