20-08-2003 12:37									#1
	Prewar Intelligence of GCA, what do we want to Know and how much will it cost us? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

As we get closer to the time of War, we are looking at taking a peek at GCA to see what is going on before we start.

So, there are 2 things that we need to consider:
1) cost
2) what we are wanting to find

Here is the cost breakdown, as of turn 106 (just after becoming Republic):

Catchopolis - 77 Gold
Balance of Power - 69 Gold
Algaland - 62 Gold
Dun na Anarchy - 62 Gold
Server Fire - 36 Gold
Port Blacksand - 32 Gold
AllYourGoatsRBelongToUs - 29 Gold
AllYouRBelongToUs - 26 Gold
AllYourDyesRBelongToUs - 17 Gold

Total - 348 Gold

This cost is influanced by population and distance. The distance part doesn;t change, but the pop part does.

Of cource we won't be looking at all of their cities, but Having some intel on some of them before we kick off could be very invaluable.

So, what do we want to look at??

MoI E_T

	20-08-2003 14:06									#2
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Do we think GCA are currently building settlers and/or workers? If yes, we'd better wait for a drop in population before investigating a city, so it'll be cheaper.

We also need a budget check - we will be needing gold for investigation, upgrades and possibly rush-buying units.

	20-08-2003 15:34									#3
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They are probably building some settlers/workers.

Port Blacksand is their latest city, built in Turn 105, and is to the west of chokepoint city Balance of Power. GCA has a few other city spots they can choose, like to the south of Dun na Anarchy (there are 2 gold + 2silk, a real $$ machine) , between All your R belongs to us & Poly, or at their previous destroyed city site south of All your R.

It could well mean they intend to push West towards CFC. In that case, they could be building more Settlers & Workers.

Also looking at the GCA map,
1. I noticed that they did not connect to their silk at the south of Anarchy. Not sure why.
2. some mined grassland are not road, some road grassland are not mined, so they obviously need more worker. Or they just need a minister like E_T.

	20-08-2003 16:03									#4
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If someone can go to the maps and compare the cities size for GCA cities between Turn 102 to 105, ie before GCA builds Port Blacksand, then we can probably know which city build the settler.

There is a chance that this city could be a Settler/worker factory. Then maybe we should not investigate that city.

	20-08-2003 16:09									#5
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The part which would be most valuable to us is the closest cities obviously.

We know the aproximate size of their total army already.
We know from what CFC tells us which portion is close to them.
If we determine what is close to us, we can determine by deduction aproximately what is near their heartland, and will be heading our way soonest.

So my vote is investigate all three former CDG cities: 26, 29, 17 gold
And Algaland: 62.
Total: 134 if I added right.

If we can then afford it, do catch next, since serverfire isn't likely to have alot.

This is assuming they are stationing most of their troops in their cities though. The only way we can determine troop locations if they are not is investigating everything.....

Upgrades should definately take priority though. If we can't afford to upgrade all our swords, then I dont know that any investigations outweight that.

Afterall information maybe power, but if we see most of their army is close, then not having upgraded is going to extra screw us. If we see that most of it is far away, then not having investigated wouldn't of hurt us that bad. We already know aproximately how big their army is, so its not a matter of knowing the minimum amount of troops to cross the border with. If we don't investigate, we just have to choose the worst case scenario.

Where investigating will really pay off: The decision to siege a city vs. pass it up for better targets.

	20-08-2003 16:42									#6
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Another advantage of investigating Algalord: we can also see how much culture this #1-city has and whether they have built a temple.

This might tell us something about the other civs' top-5 cities, too.

	20-08-2003 17:26									#7
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Why is Algalord the #1 city?

	20-08-2003 17:57									#8
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http://apolyton.net/upload/files/no...er/00450f11.JPG

{edit} Image removed & replaced with a link, for faster loading.

Last edited by Hot_Enamel on 21-08-2003 at 08:24

	20-08-2003 18:41									#9
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Yes, I have seen that it is #1, but why? Has it Temple, Wonders, many "rich" people :-) ?
How is the City-List created?

	20-08-2003 20:02									#10
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Good questions. Something for Area X...

* BigFurryMonster sees more work coming.

	20-08-2003 20:05									#11
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Investigating a few cities is fine (Algalord for the #1 city determining factor and probably Catchopolis eventually) but I wouldn't go too overboard. If GCA is at all smart (and we have to assume they are) then they'll know that we'd be able to see their units in the cities and consequently keep them out of the cities for the most part.

	20-08-2003 22:04									#12
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rush (and anyone else), the maps that we have of GCA are old, so don't take what they show for roads and such to be very up to date.

E_T

	20-08-2003 22:07									#13
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I would say that Algaland (and Catchopolis) likely has an Ancient Temple. Maybe a barracks, too. But that extra Culture per turn could be the reason for it.

E_T

	20-08-2003 22:08									#14
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We can gain intelligence on units outside of cities via simple troop movement/ reconnaissance, so they really can't obfuscate their numbers by leaving troops outside their cities. We should only investigate the closest one or two cities. Intelligence gained from investigating the larger, further away, cities will be completely obsolete by the time we can make any use of it.

	20-08-2003 22:27									#15
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Do we think GCA are currently building settlers and/or workers? If yes, we'd better wait for a drop in population before investigating a city, so it'll be cheaper.

For the past 20 or 30 turns they've taken 2 Settlers from Dun na Anarchy (which has a cattle tile) to build Server Fire and Blacksand. We've seen Elucidium drop pop once, so that was either a pop rush or a Worker. Other cities haven't suffered any noticable pop drops, so they would have to be timed with growth.

It's unlikely they're concentrating TOO much on Workers, especially with Catchopolis not growing.

On a somewhat related note, CFC only has 1 Worker... they used to have 2 but they lost one of them to barb Horsemen.

I guess we're the only team who knows how to use the industrial trait...

	20-08-2003 22:30									#16
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Anyone have any clue to the Formula for calculating the Top-5 cities list??

	20-08-2003 22:35									#17
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Anyone have any clue to the Formula for calculating the Top-5 cities list??

I've heard population is important, culture is really important, how old the city, and also that there's a "glitch." Other than that, can't tell you a thing.

	20-08-2003 23:53									#18
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Before I'd really want to vote on this, I'd want to see some hard #'s on how much currency we are going to have on D-Day post-upgrades. If the answer to that is it depends on how many units we upgrade, then I think I'd have to vote to upgrade the units.

	20-08-2003 23:57									#19
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We have 147 gold right now, and make 32 per turn. That means we need 2 more turns to get enough gold for upgrades (211). So basically we start at 11 with 32 per turn. So 7 turns would be 171 gold, 12 turns would be 331 and 17 would be 491.

Though that number will vary depending on what we make per turn (whether it goes up or down from 32), it's likely that our cities will grow and produce more commerce to make up for the cost of the new units. We might actually make a bit more than 32 per turn before too long.

	21-08-2003 00:03									#20
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Just to make sure we're all on the same page.. the plan is to investigate at the last possible second, right as our troops cross into hostile territory, yes? That way we could do as many investigations as possible on the same turn and have the most up-to-date information.

	21-08-2003 00:05									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Just to make sure we're all on the same page.. the plan is to investigate at the last possible second, right as our troops cross into hostile territory, yes? That way we could do as many investigations as possible on the same turn and have the most up-to-date information.

That's correct. On turn 0 we investigate all cities we want to get a peek at, then declare war, then attack any targets of opportunity as we move in.

	21-08-2003 06:06									#22
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Hmmm, not sure what my vote is.

Its clear we'll have some cash to investigate. However, it'd be nice to keep a small nest egg around for the purpose of emergency gold rushing too. Its not essential, but if things go especialy badly on the front (read GCA has insane luck against our invading army), then being able to rush a merc or two back home might save our skins.

In any case, I think I'm in favor of investigating the border cities + algaland on turn 0 (delaying if necessary). Then saving cash from that point on unless our situation really calls for a rush or investigation.

	21-08-2003 09:06									#23
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FYI, once we are at war, we will no longer be able to investigate any of their cities.

E_T

	21-08-2003 16:07									#24
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*bonk self* I should of known that I knew you can't setup an embassy. I dont think i'd ever noticed that you can't use an existing one either, I dont think I've ever even tried to. I generally have better things to do with my gold at war time than investigate a bunch of ai controlled cities when I already know what they are doing with their units (offensive ones are attacking me like lemmings, defensive ones are turtling).

	21-09-2003 09:08									#25
	Update for turn 118 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Catchopolis - 77 Gold
Balance of Power - 69 Gold
Algalord - 62 Gold
Dun na Anarchy - 62 Gold
Server Fire - 46 Gold
Port Blacksand - 42 Gold
Random Outpost (formerly Goats) - 29 Gold
Catcher in the Rye (formerly Euclidium) - 46 Gold
Increadible Dancing Girl (Formerly Dyes) - 17 Gold
Sodapopolis - 29 Gold

E_T

	21-09-2003 13:54									#26
	GCA City Status from Turn 77 Inflate your Upload Space

I posted this in my earlier thread. This is relevant to the current discussion, so I am reposting it here.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We acquired GCA map on Turn 77, so i was able to open up the save files and compile the following :

Catcher in the Rye (formerly known as Elucidium - CDG)
Turn 93 - captured city from CDG. Walls included.
Turn 99 - Population increase to 2
Turn 103 - Population reduced to 1. Rushed a temple.
Turn 105 - Population increased to 2
Turn 108 - Culture expanded (note : temple gives 2 culture pts per turn, that's why i believed a temple was rushed in turn 103)
Turn 110 - Population increased to 3
Turn 117 - Population increased to 4

Incredible Dancing Girl (formerly known as Zarigueya - CDG)
Turn 90 - captured city from CDG. Walls included.
Turn 108 - Culture expanded. same time as Catcher in the Rye. Likely to have built a temple too on Turn 103.
Turn 113 - Population increased to 2
Turn 114 - Population reduced to 1. Uncleared as to what they built or rushed. Could be a worker. Or could be used to rush a Barrack or something.

Random Outpost (formerly known as OurGoatsaretrainedtokill - CDG)
Turn 86 - Captured from CDG
Turn 102 - Population increased to 2

Algalord
Turn 81 - Culture expanded (to 100) so their temple was built very long ago
Turn 94 - Population increased to 4
Turn 105 - Population increased to 5
Turn 115 - Population reduced to 3. Likely to have built a settler. No new city found yet.

Server Fire
Turn 91 - Built from the settler from Dun na Anarchy
Turn 101 - Population increased to 2
Turn 111 - Population increased to 3

Catchopolis
Turn 84 - Population increased to 5
Turn 101 - Population increased to 6

Dun na Arnachy
Turn 81 - Population increased to 3
Turn 85 - Population increased to 4
Turn 88 - Population reduced to 2. Built settler. Settler found Server Fire.
Turn 90 - Population increased to 3
Turn 95 - Population increased to 4
Turn 99 - Culture expanded (10). Could have built a temple on Turn 94.
Turn 100 - Population increased to 5
Turn 101 - Population reduced to 3. Built settler. Settler found Port Blacksand.
Turn 105 - Population increased to 4
Turn 107 - Population reduced to 2. Built settler. Settler found Sodapopolis.
Turn 110 - Population increased to 3
Turn 115 - Population increased to 4

Balance of Power
Turn 92 - Population increased to 5
Turn 101 - Culture expanded (100). Must have built temple very long ago.

Port Blacksand
Turn 105 - built from settler from Dun Na Anarchy
Turn 115 - Population increased to 2

Sodapopolis
Turn 111 - built from settler from Dun Na Anarchy

	21-09-2003 14:07									#27
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In summary,

Dun na Anarchy is the Settler factory, having built 3 Settlers from Turn 77 to Turn 117. The only other city that has produced settler is Algalord, in turn 115.

Catchopolis (Pop 6), BoP (Pop 5) are major production centre, with hardly any change in Population since Turn 77.

Algalord, BoP, Catchopolis are High Culture Cities, with culture score > 100. Catcher in the Rye and Incredible Dancing Girl have culture too, Catcher having rushed a temple on Turn 103.

Since we have limited funds, I would therefore considered investigating :

1. Catcher in the Rye. This is the first city we are going after right ?
2. Incredible Dancing Girl. Incredible Dancing Girls either built a worker or rush something on Turn 114. (assuming they don't lose a pop due to disease in Jungle !) and
3. possibly Algalord.

	22-09-2003 01:38									#28
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These two at most:
Catcher in the Rye (formerly Euclidium) - 46 Gold
Increadible Dancing Girl (Formerly Dyes) - 17 Gold

I include Dancing Girl only because it seems to be the plan to bypass this city. We should not do that if there are any large number of troops there.

For all the others, our investigations will not reveal information useful for military planning. Their forces will move.

Also, we simply don't have the gold for much more.

	22-09-2003 02:32									#29
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I agree with taking a look at those two cities. The other cities won't reveal information that would be of much use to us for long. Too many turns will pass before we reach the other cities and many units will have moved about.

	22-09-2003 07:33									#30
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Concur on those two cities, preferably on the same turn.