09-09-2003 15:38									#91
	Suffering from ads?

The aliens told us about all that when they visited but had to put it in terms we'd understand.

	09-09-2003 15:42									#92
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

is that supposed to be a counterargument?
I didnt mention aliens but the very interesting similarities of myths and dogmas to modern scientific finds about creation of the universe and the evolution of the earth

	09-09-2003 15:49									#93
	Inflate your Upload Space

I actually agree with that, I was joking (kinda) it would explain it though wouldn't it. Much more advanced aliens came in and told us the history of the universe in terms we'd understand.

	09-09-2003 15:51									#94
	Get a bigger avatar today!

or maybe somehow people could figure these things out by themselves back then. only vagely but suprisingly accurately enough considering their means at the time... and they made myths or religious dogmas to recite them through more or less obvious symbolisms. quite interesting

	09-09-2003 15:56									#95
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Possible, some of the discoveries made by, for instance, the Greeks and the Egyptians were quite startling.

	09-09-2003 16:10									#96
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: and let's not get into the ancient greek myths the symbolisms there are breathtaking, what with the battle of the titans (teutonic movement early in the earth's history

How exactly was the movement of Germans symbolized in Greek myths?

	09-09-2003 16:13									#97
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

How good's your greek?

	09-09-2003 16:14									#98
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: How good's your greek?

Not too good, I must admit. It sounds so similar to Turkish that I get confused.

	09-09-2003 16:26									#99
	Suffering from ads?

If I may step into the thread for a moment and adress the original point of problem child; For me creationism -and with it religious beliefs overall- is not so much an answer but a reason. In other words, people seek a reason for existance, not so much an answer. In this context creationism is the logic answer to the emergence of more or less rational theories that give or seek answers but not any meaning. Big bang gives an answer to pretty much everything (if it's true) but gives no meaning, no reason to be. For many people that belive in God, this is something they cannot accept. God gives with its mere existance meaning.

The problem however, as I see it, is that there's no meaning for God. Except for those that belive. The scientific way for a creationist would be to question the reasons for and meaning of Gods existance, but that's not gonna happen.

	09-09-2003 16:39									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin In this context creationism is the logic answer to the emergence of more or less rational theories that give or seek answers but not any meaning.

Not surprising. Meaning does not exist in nature. It is purely a human construct. [Maybe dolphins have it too, but until we find out ]

quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin God gives with its mere existance meaning.

I don't understand. To me it just moves everything back one square. How does the existence of God give meaning to anything? Suppose He made us. Then what? So we can be good? What for? To go to Heaven? What then?

On the other hand, if the meaning is to make this world a better place, now that's something.

	09-09-2003 16:44									#101
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Yes, that's exacly my point. It's just one square back for me as well. However, people that are looking for meaning turn a blind eye to this simple fact. This is one reason why creationism cannot be threated as a serious theory about the origins of anything. It's a "biased" theory.

	09-09-2003 16:48									#102
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh You should be careful with your terminology. If you really mean 'evolution' in the above then I agree with your parallel - all three are observed phenomena, so they (in all but definition) do exist. But I supest that you mean 'evolution by natural selection', in which case they are not the same. Evolution by natural selection is a theory (despite what you said earlier) of how evolution comes about, in the same way that Newton's laws or general relativity are theories of gravity. So you would be better to compare to, for example, general relativity.

There's a pretty specific meaning of what "evolution" is, and it is not just "natural selection acting on random mutations" either. To put it broadly, evolution refers to the change in the frequencies of allele, as there are other forces such as genetic drift at work.

Anyway, evolution is a fact because it has been observed. Not just the raise of multiple resistant strains of microbes either. There have been instances of speciation of macroscopic organisms. So yes, evolution is mostly likely to be a fact.

	09-09-2003 16:58									#103
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: How good's your greek? Not too good, I must admit. It sounds so similar to Turkish that I get confused.

turkish doesnt sound like greek at all but i see you are again dismayed by greek history.

now suck it down your throat like your boyfriend's **** and relax

	09-09-2003 17:00									#104
	Get a bigger avatar today!

or should I say osama's

	09-09-2003 18:01									#105
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by MikeH Do people really still believe in literal 7 day creation story or do they just pretend to so that they can annoy people on internet forums?

I believe God created the Earth in 6 days (rested on the 7th). However, our reckoning of time is not the same as His. One day in God's reckoning is equal to a thousand years in ours. Therefore it took him 6,000 years to create the Earth, according to our reckoning.

	09-09-2003 18:11									#106
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Ha

	09-09-2003 18:37									#107
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Verto I believe God created the Earth in 6 days (rested on the 7th). However, our reckoning of time is not the same as His. One day in God's reckoning is equal to a thousand years in ours. Therefore it took him 6,000 years to create the Earth, according to our reckoning.

That makes sense because before he created heaven, earth and gave it light there would be no such concept as an earth day.

	09-09-2003 20:22									#108
	Remove this text

No such thing as a earth year either.

	09-09-2003 20:27									#109
	Support Apolyton

In god's reckoning = 1 day
In our reckoning = 1000 years.

therefore it doesn't matter that the Earth didn't exist (yet) because we are comparing something in his reference with something in ours.

	09-09-2003 20:35									#110
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

There are more choices than just creationism or evolution. I believe that God gave us the initial spark of life on this planet. It's dna was programmed to evolve, and here we are.

Evolution is God's method of creation.

	09-09-2003 20:46									#111
	Suffering from ads?

DNA being 'programmed' to evolve wouldn't work though.

God would have to dump the write proteins in the write places then organise every random event of planetary change and genetic mutation proteins eventually developed into humans.

	09-09-2003 20:56									#112
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by MikeH DNA being 'programmed' to evolve wouldn't work though. God would have to dump the write proteins in the write places then organise every random event of planetary change and genetic mutation proteins eventually developed into humans.

It's a lot more complicated than that. Perhaps 'programmed' is the wrong word to use.

PAPER 36 - THE LIFE CARRIERS

Life does not originate spontaneously. Life is constructed according to plans formulated by the (unrevealed) Architects of Being and appears on the inhabited planets either by direct importation or as a result of the operations of the Life Carriers of the local universes. These carriers of life are among the most interesting and versatile of the diverse family of universe Sons. They are intrusted with designing and carrying creature life to the planetary spheres. And after planting this life on such new worlds, they remain there for long periods to foster its development.

	09-09-2003 21:00									#113
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

WTF is that? (Not sure whether it's a parody site or not, but it seems to be supporting my it wuz alienz wot dun it hypothesis.

	09-09-2003 21:04									#114
	Support Apolyton

It's a site that has the full text of the Urantia Book on it. It's a philosophical kind of book. Pretty interesting IMO.

	09-09-2003 21:05									#115
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

3. LIFE TRANSPLANTATION

Life does not spontaneously appear in the universes; the Life Carriers must initiate it on the barren planets. They are the carriers, disseminators, and guardians of life as it appears on the evolutionary worlds of space. All life of the order and forms known on Urantia arises with these Sons, though not all forms of planetary life are existent on Urantia.

The corps of Life Carriers commissioned to plant life upon a new world usually consists of one hundred senior carriers, one hundred assistants, and one thousand custodians. The Life Carriers often carry actual life plasm to a new world, but not always. They sometimes organize the life patterns after arriving on the planet of assignment in accordance with formulas previously approved for a new adventure in life establishment. Such was the origin of the planetary life of Urantia.

When, in accordance with approved formulas, the physical patterns have been provided, then do the Life Carriers catalyze this lifeless material, imparting through their persons the vital spirit spark; and forthwith do the inert patterns become living matter.

The vital spark--the mystery of life--is bestowed through the Life Carriers, not by them. They do indeed supervise such transactions, they formulate the life plasm itself, but it is the Universe Mother Spirit who supplies the essential factor of the living plasm. From the Creative Daughter of the Infinite Spirit comes that energy spark which enlivens the body and presages the mind.

In the bestowal of life the Life Carriers transmit nothing of their personal natures, not even on those spheres where new orders of life are projected. At such times they simply initiate and transmit the spark of life, start the required revolutions of matter in accordance with the physical, chemical, and electrical specifications of the ordained plans and patterns. Life Carriers are living catalytic presences which agitate, organize, and vitalize the otherwise inert elements of the material order of existence.

The Life Carriers of a planetary corps are given a certain period in which to establish life on a new world, approximately one-half million years of the time of that planet. At the termination of this period, indicated by certain developmental attainments of the planetary life, they cease implantation efforts, and they may not subsequently add anything new or supplemental to the life of that planet.

During the ages intervening between life establishment and the emergence of human creatures of moral status, the Life Carriers are permitted to manipulate the life environment and otherwise favorably directionize the course of biologic evolution. And this they do for long periods of time.

When the Life Carriers operating on a new world have once succeeded in producing a being with will, with the power of moral decision and spiritual choice, then and there their work terminates--they are through; they may manipulate the evolving life no further. From this point forward the evolution of living things must proceed in accordance with the endowment of the inherent nature and tendencies which have already been imparted to, and established in, the planetary life formulas and patterns. The Life Carriers are not permitted to experiment or to interfere with will; they are not allowed to dominate or arbitrarily influence moral creatures.

Upon the arrival of a Planetary Prince they prepare to leave, though two of the senior carriers and twelve custodians may volunteer, by taking temporary renunciation vows, to remain indefinitely on the planet as advisers in the matter of the further development and conservation of the life plasm. Two such Sons and their twelve associates are now serving on Urantia.

	09-09-2003 21:07									#116
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

6. LIVING FORCES
Life is both mechanistic and vitalistic--material and spiritual. Ever will Urantia physicists and chemists progress in their understanding of the protoplasmic forms of vegetable and animal life, but never will they be able to produce living organisms. Life is something different from all energy manifestations; even the material life of physical creatures is not inherent in matter.

Things material may enjoy an independent existence, but life springs only from life. Mind can be derived only from pre-existent mind. Spirit takes origin only from spirit ancestors. The creature may produce the forms of life, but only a creator personality or a creative force can supply the activating living spark.

Life Carriers can organize the material forms, or physical patterns, of living beings, but the Spirit provides the initial spark of life and bestows the endowment of mind. Even the living forms of experimental life which the Life Carriers organize on their Salvington worlds are always devoid of reproductive powers. When the life formulas and the vital patterns are correctly assembled and properly organized, the presence of a Life Carrier is sufficient to initiate life, but all such living organisms are lacking in two essential attributes--mind endowment and reproductive powers. Animal mind and human mind are gifts of the local universe Mother Spirit, functioning through the seven adjutant mind-spirits, while creature ability to reproduce is the specific and personal impartation of the Universe Spirit to the ancestral life plasm inaugurated by the Life Carriers.

When the Life Carriers have designed the patterns of life, after they have organized the energy systems, there must occur an additional phenomenon; the "breath of life" must be imparted to these lifeless forms. The Sons of God can construct the forms of life, but it is the Spirit of God who really contributes the vital spark. And when the life thus imparted is spent, then again the remaining material body becomes dead matter. When the bestowed life is exhausted, the body returns to the bosom of the material universe from which it was borrowed by the Life Carriers to serve as a transient vehicle for that life endowment which they conveyed to such a visible association of energy-matter.

The life bestowed upon plants and animals by the Life Carriers does not return to the Life Carriers upon the death of plant or animal. The departing life of such a living thing possesses neither identity nor personality; it does not individually survive death. During its existence and the time of its sojourn in the body of matter, it has undergone a change; it has undergone energy evolution and survives only as a part of the cosmic forces of the universe; it does not survive as individual life. The survival of mortal creatures is wholly predicated on the evolvement of an immortal soul within the mortal mind.

We speak of life as "energy" and as "force," but it is really neither. Force-energy is variously gravity responsive; life is not. Pattern is also nonresponsive to gravity, being a configuration of energies that have already fulfilled all gravity-responsive obligations. Life, as such, constitutes the animation of some pattern-configured or otherwise segregated system of energy--material, mindal, or spiritual.

There are some things connected with the elaboration of life on the evolutionary planets which are not altogether clear to us. We fully comprehend the physical organization of the electrochemical formulas of the Life Carriers, but we do not wholly understand the nature and source of the life-activation spark. We know that life flows from the Father through the Son and by the Spirit. It is more than possible that the Master Spirits are the sevenfold channel of the river of life which is poured out upon all creation. But we do not comprehend the technique whereby the supervising Master Spirit participates in the initial episode of life bestowal on a new planet. The Ancients of Days, we are confident, also have some part in this inauguration of life on a new world, but we are wholly ignorant of the nature thereof. We do know that the Universe Mother Spirit actually vitalizes the lifeless patterns and imparts to such activated plasm the prerogatives of organismal reproduction. We observe that these three are the levels of God the Sevenfold, sometimes designated as the Supreme Creators of time and space; but otherwise we know little more than Urantia mortals--simply that concept is inherent in the Father, expression in the Son, and life realization in the Spirit.

	09-09-2003 21:15									#117
	Support Apolyton

i didnt read it what does it say?

	09-09-2003 21:27									#118
	Get a bigger avatar today!

It says you smell, and are in urgent need of a shower. Also, you need to shave your back again.

	09-09-2003 21:28									#119
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

What an incredible threadkill you've discovered.

	09-09-2003 21:38									#120
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

in so many words?