22-08-2003 06:58									#61
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Courts are to adminster the law.

And, according to the SCOTUS in 1980, the posting of the Ten Commandments on government buildings is illegal. Good thing the rest of Moore's court is following the law by opposing him.

	22-08-2003 07:00									#62
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Remember...part of the big reason why foreigners (some of them) say "I want to go to America and become a fat lazy capitalist pig" is because we have rules to protect our minorities...and not just racial minorities. Minorities by creed, gender, race, ethnic group, whatever, should be equal citizens in the eyes of the law. If the law (the judge in this case pretty much equals the law, if you want me to simplify like that) endorses even a majority group, it distorts the law's vision, or opens up the possibility for this.

I dont have time for a long reply to this. You dont have to look very far to see that all laws oppress someone who has a different opinion.

	22-08-2003 07:00									#63
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Asher -

quote: Did you not comprehend it when I said morality is a very stupid thing to ask permission about, especially on a web forum?

Of course, that's why we're debating whether or not it is actually stupid to place morality above the law.

quote: People who ask strangers online if it's "okay" to disobey laws in the moral sense is screwed in the head.

Why? All you've said is that people have different morals and I asked if it was moral for the people running the Underground Railroad, etc., to defy the law and you didn't respond.

quote: I suppose I was giving him too much credit by assuming he meant legal way to ignore the ruling...

Hmm...I thought it was just you not comprehending what he said.

	22-08-2003 07:02									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Irrelevant, since his actions are illegal and unconstitutional. The majority opinion simply doesn't matter when it comes to violations of the establishment clause.

That's still to be determined. Last time I looked the Supremes were the final arbiter of that.

	22-08-2003 07:03									#65
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH That's still to be determined. Last time I looked the Supremes were the final arbiter of that.

They arbitrated on it in 1980, so there's no question, which is why (IMO) they dismissed his emergency request so easily.

	22-08-2003 07:04									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Odin As an atheist, I wish I cold smack that judge so hard for his bigotry.

The bigots are the atheist who can't tolerate even a stone monument because it has a religious aspect to it.

	22-08-2003 07:05									#67
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Same goes for women. Take their damned votes away! Never trust anything that bleeds for days and won't die!

Halellueua (**** I dont know how to spell it)!

We've got a convert to the dark side. I knew someone would come around.

	22-08-2003 07:11									#68
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat The bigots are the atheist who can't tolerate even a stone monument because it has a religious aspect to it.

It's disingenuous to pretend this is an atheist vs. Christian issue, since the 8 justices who stood up to Moore are all Christians.

It's also disingenuous to maintain that it is just a religious "aspect." Moore has openly stated the fundamental purpose of the monument is religious, plain and simple.

	22-08-2003 07:14									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker MtG - The word "law" in the 1st Amendment refers to congressional legislation as the words "Congress shall make no law" indicates, not "administrative" actions that have no force of law on others.

So apparently it's optional for employees of the state supreme court to pay attention to directives of the chief justice as the administrative head of the state judiciary, because his directives have no force of law? Ok, then, problem solved.

quote: Would that mean every politician who mentioned God throughout US history was passing a law in violation of the establishment clause?

So let's see, for your argument, "law" is to be construed as narrowly as possible, and only apply Establishment Clause restrictions to one branch of the Federal government, (oh and let's not forget the Fourteenth Amendment's application to the states here), but now an administrative order to erect a prominent monument in a public area of a state government building, made by a senior official in connection executing his official duties is to be equated to any abstract "mention" of God by any politician? Sorry, I'm not playing those kind of definition games all night. Maybe Ming or somebody's up for MP civ. Maybe if Congress calls it an "act" instead of a law, they can join the other two branches of government in immunity from the Establishment Clause?

quote: How about all those religious sentiments on monuments dotting the Washington landscape?

Historical monuments in parks do not have the same impact as an announced intention to make "acknowledging God" a part of the mission of the highest judicial court in a given jurisdiction.

If there was a public park or mall outside the court building, and Judge Moore wanted his monument there, I'd have no problem with it. Hell, if he wanted it exactly where it is, but took the position that it relates to legal history and foundation, rather than proclaiming that he's going to make acknowledging God (as he interprets God) part of the mission of the Alabama Supreme Court, then the intent behind the action is squarely in violation of the Establishment Clause.

	22-08-2003 07:15									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Moore has every right to practice his beliefs in private, but none to use government time or resources to impress his views on his citizens. It is an abuse of his position of authority to allow it to continue. Judges are appointed to be judges, not religious demogogues.

So the message is, "You can be a Christian, just not in public where we can see you."?

	22-08-2003 07:16									#71
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Halellueua (**** I dont know how to spell it)! We've got a convert to the dark side. I knew someone would come around.

Hallelujah, BTW.

	22-08-2003 07:17									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov They arbitrated on it in 1980, so there's no question, which is why (IMO) they dismissed his emergency request so easily.

They dismissed this particular stay but this question isnt over. Moore is a looney (IMO) but just like the tree huggers he puts the question out there so that it cant be ignored.

	22-08-2003 07:19									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov It's disingenuous to pretend this is an atheist vs. Christian issue, since the 8 justices who stood up to Moore are all Christians. It's also disingenuous to maintain that it is just a religious "aspect." Moore has openly stated the fundamental purpose of the monument is religious, plain and simple.

Diplomat needs to get his head out of Jerry Falwell's ass. Same with the whole Bible Belt.

	22-08-2003 07:19									#74
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat So the message is, "You can be a Christian, just not in public where we can see you."?

How is his imposing a monument on a public building required of him in order to profess his Christianity? You're dodging the issue, which is that he has superceded his authority by illegally placing a personal statement of religious faith in a public government space.

He can profess to be Christian all he likes to anyone he likes. He cannot use government property to display his religious creed in this manner.

	22-08-2003 07:21									#75
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH They dismissed this particular stay but this question isnt over. Moore is a looney (IMO) but just like the tree huggers he puts the question out there so that it cant be ignored.

HEY! don't compare that moron with us tree huggers!

	22-08-2003 07:22									#76
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat If there was a public park or mall outside the court building, and Judge Moore wanted his monument there, I'd have no problem with it. Hell, if he wanted it exactly where it is, but took the position that it relates to legal history and foundation, rather than proclaiming that he's going to make acknowledging God (as he interprets God)

Or if other similar monuments to other legal/religious backgrounds were equally allowed......

	22-08-2003 07:22									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov It's disingenuous to pretend this is an atheist vs. Christian issue, since the 8 justices who stood up to Moore are all Christians. It's also disingenuous to maintain that it is just a religious "aspect." Moore has openly stated the fundamental purpose of the monument is religious, plain and simple.

I was just responding to Odin and his fellow intolerant atheists who jump at the chance to bash Christians everytime something like a 10 Commandment case comes up.

	22-08-2003 07:23									#78
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acutally I tihnk that the monuments in DC are mostly Masonic

Jon Miller

	22-08-2003 07:23									#79
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The reason Moore talks about "acknowledging God", is because the Alabama CONSTITUTION says that.

	22-08-2003 07:24									#80
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat So the message is, "You can be a Christian, just not in public where we can see you."?

He can be a Christian in public. I'm sure he goes to church on Sundays without doing so via a secret tunnel, to private sermons.

If Moore was a private citizen, and wanted to erect a 5,300 lb memorial to anything in a state building, he'd have a tough time of it.

He is using (openly and unabashedly, it was part of his campaign theme that got him elected), his office to promote religion.

Even as a legislator, he could campaign and get elected on a "bring back prayer to the schools and rename the state to the 'Holy Sovereign and Christian God Fearing State of Alabama and You Yankee Liberals Can Just Turn Your Asses Around and Go Back to Hell, New York, or Wherever You Come From'" platform, and it would be fine, because his legislative acts (or attempts to act) would be subject to majority consent of the legislature, executive action, and judicial review. Instead, he's the senior judicial officer of the state, with less review and constraint on his actions than probably any other official in the state.

	22-08-2003 07:26									#81
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Or if other similar monuments to other legal/religious backgrounds were equally allowed......

That would be another way. It's not the monument I oppose (I was on Moore's side until he ratcheted up the rhetoric and decided to defy higher courts), it's the intent to promote that's behind it.

	22-08-2003 07:26									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Odin HEY! don't compare that moron with us tree huggers!

Would tree huggers rather be compared with PETA looneys rather than religious ones then?

	22-08-2003 07:27									#83
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat The reason Moore talks about "acknowledging God", is because the Alabama CONSTITUTION says that.

Now you're just being intellectually dishonest. Do you honestly think Moore isn't using the display as a promotion of his religious beliefs? He's openly said so all the time!

That the Alabama Constitution makes a reference to "Almighty God" is irrelevant, but does show that perhaps it is in violation of the U.S. Constitution.

	22-08-2003 07:30									#84
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat I was just responding to Odin and his fellow intolerant atheists who jump at the chance to bash Christians everytime something like a 10 Commandment case comes up.

Oh, we con't complain when you fundies try to corrupt My country with YOUR bigotry and intolerance in clear violation with the 1st amendment?

Oh, BTW, Being called tree hugger is a compliment!

	22-08-2003 07:31									#85
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat The reason Moore talks about "acknowledging God", is because the Alabama CONSTITUTION says that.

The Alabama constitution mentions God, yes. Moore's stated reasons go beyond merely what is contained in the Alabama constitution, and both are irrelevent, as they can not supersede the US Constitution. This is a Federal law issue, and that's where Moore wanted it to go all along.

	22-08-2003 07:32									#86
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The truth is that a Court is a highly appropriate place for the 10 Commandments. Maybe if more people learned the 10 Commandments, this country might be a better place.

	22-08-2003 07:33									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller acutally I tihnk that the monuments in DC are mostly Masonic Jon Miller

Lets not get into the secret societies just yet (wink wink nod nod........... secret handshake)

s

	22-08-2003 07:35									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Now you're just being intellectually dishonest. Do you honestly think Moore isn't using the display as a promotion of his religious beliefs? He's openly said so all the time! That the Alabama Constitution makes a reference to "Almighty God" is irrelevant, but does show that perhaps it is in violation of the U.S. Constitution.

IIRC, SCOTUS hasn't ruled on cases involving preambles and other non-enacting text in state constitutions, but it has ruled on occasion in issues where preambles, legislative intent, legislative findings and declarations and other non-enacting text in legislation have been challenged, and ruled that those parts of legislation do not create constitutionality issues in and of themselves, as they are in the nature of commentary. The biggest recent case I recall with such a challenge was Webster v. Reproductive Health Services (1991, IIRC)

	22-08-2003 07:35									#89
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Would tree huggers rather be compared with PETA looneys rather than religious ones then?

I am not a wacko tree-hugger. I simply beleive that loggers should NOT be in certain areas, like the redwood forest and the rain forests. I don't mind logging as ling as they plant new trees in the place of the cut ones.

Enough of this thread-jack already, if you want to bash us enviromentalists make a new thread.

	22-08-2003 07:36									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Oh, we con't complain when you fundies try to corrupt My country with YOUR bigotry and intolerance in clear violation with the 1st amendment?