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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
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That's why you pick one of the louder ones, and make a point of spreading his DNA over as much of the pavement, gravel, lockerrooms, or whatever hard, unpleasant objects or surfaces are handy in the school environment.
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That's gross, Michael. Not all of us are into such kind of stuff. |
Let's talk about the Palestinians, shall we? Sometimes you have to deal with people on the level they dictate, because they won't give you a choice.
If you could have a reasonable discussion with these people, by definition they wouldn't be bullies and *******s.
And if it gets down to my DNA on the pavement, or his, it ain't gonna be mine.
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:30
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
or, you comit suicide, which more than a few kids do when subjected to endless ridicule and abuse by their peers.
Sorry, I got no patience for the 'pick yourself up by the boot straps and be a man' brigade when it comes to youngsters killing each other or killing themselves because of the crap we foist on them and the total failure we have been in protecting them from crap by each other.
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So how far do we go in protecting the eggshell crowd from the mean nasty world out there? Anyone who commits suicide over "ridicule" has their own set of problems above and beyond the *******s who pick on them. The *******s need to be dealt with, but the "victims" need to get their own **** together. What next, they'll commit suicide or go postal when they get fired from a job because their self-esteem just can't cope with it?
There's a whole industry in the form of lawyers, shrinks, pop-shrinks, "self-help" authors, all making a fortune out of encouring everyone to find their inner victim and wallow in their victimhood. 
"The crap we foist on them" -  nothing they do themselves, and nothing they (aggressor or "victim") are responsible for, is it?
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Many of the reactions to this case are clear examples of what is wrong. It is the victims fault. The bullies and those who ridicule a child are not at fault and should not be held accountable.
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Yes, let's make everyone who downloaded the video pay. Everyone who edited the different versions of the tape and redistributed it. Let's bankrupt the parents of some kids who may be real raging *******s, or they may be dufuses (dufi?) like this kid. We don't know, we just know the characterization filter through the lawyers who stand to make a good chunk of money.
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Well, it's bloody well time we held the ****** accountable and at least tried to make the lives of youngsters a little more bearable. |
Oh yes, and this lawsuit is ALLLLLLLL about that. No money damages at all, and the plaintiff's attorney's aren't in it for money or publicity either.
If you want to hold the *******s accountable, the appropriate forum is through the school. If you want to make money, the appropriate forum is through the courts.
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Comrade Tassadar
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I see...so he starts out making "SHAME SHAME SHAME!" judgments on people who happen to agree with the kid, as if anyone who disagreed with DRose was a nasty, horrible person, yet I am somehow making you look bad? Please. Be more concerned with how you present your own arguments, not others. |
I feel the need to reiterate: Boris: Cool it. I support your position, but your making people who support your position look like asses.
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If it's legally okay to splash the image of someone across the net without their knowledge or permission in this instance, why not in any other? |
Ah, but its not! You forget that I agree with your position. However, the two simply are not comparable. That is all I am saying.
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Well, those perverts who videotaped women peeing in public restrooms will be glad to know you're on their side. |
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It's a shame you don't have any concern for the kid's well-being and are so blithe about the bullies who have tormented him for so long. |
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Your moral indignation is cute, but uninteresting, as it's hollow. |
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Why not just try and argue with people without being such a high-and-mighty ******* about it? |
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What a crock of bullshit. |
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Well, while I'd like to accept the "congradulations" [sic] for such handywork, |
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I believe there is "lawful evil." You can play by the rules and still be a dickwad. |
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I see...so he starts out making "SHAME SHAME SHAME!" judgments on people who happen to agree with the kid, as if anyone who disagreed with DRose was a nasty, horrible person, yet I am somehow making you look bad? |
Maybe temper tantrum is a bit of a strong word, however....You haven't been the most calm, rational person you could have been.
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what the hell are you on about here? It was just used to demonstrate how once can follow all the rules but still be a jerk. In other words, never getting in trouble doesn't prove one is a good person in any way. |
Alright...
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He's 15, so he should get over any 'emotional distress' soon. |
Possibly not. If this was an isolated incident I may agree with you however with the sheer amount of publicity its getting (Partially due to his own actions) it may leave emotional trauma for quite some time.
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Between 7th and 8th grade, I came down with a nasty case of meningitis, was in the hospital for a bunch of days (in isolation, no less, but that's what got me interested in politics, because the Senate Watergate hearings were going on), and when I got out, I was completely messed up. Weak as hell, absolutely no endurance, totally easy "prey" and going to a new school with more than it's share of *******s. |
Thats a bit disturbing, actualy.
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Well, it's bloody well time we held the ****** accountable and at least tried to make the lives of youngsters a little more bearable. |
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Let's talk about the Palestinians, shall we? |
Sure  Theres a suicide (or homicide, depending on if your watching any other news source on the planet or Fox News) in Israel. theres a house demolishing/assasination/somethingelselikethat is Palestine. Theres a suicide (or homicide, depending on if your watching any other news source on the planet or Fox News) in Israel. theres a house demolishing/assasination/somethingelselikethat is Palestine. Theres a suicide (or homicide, depending on if your watching any other news source on the planet or Fox News) in Israel. theres a house demolishing/assasination/somethingelselikethat is Palestine. Theres a suicide (or homicide, depending on if your watching any other news source on the planet or Fox News) in Israel. theres a house demolishing/assasination/somethingelselikethat is Palestine. Theres a suicide (or homicide, depending on if your watching any other news source on the planet or Fox News) in Israel. theres a house demolishing/assasination/somethingelselikethat is Palestine.
Theres a ceasefire!!!!  Maybe peace?
Theres a suicide (or homicide, depending on if your watching any other news source on the planet or Fox News) in Israel. theres a house demolishing/assasination/somethingelselikethat is Palestine. Theres a suicide (or homicide, depending on if your watching any other news source on the planet or Fox News) in Israel. theres a house demolishing/assasination/somethingelselikethat is Palestine. Theres a suicide (or homicide, depending on if your watching any other news source on the planet or Fox News) in Israel. theres a house demolishing/assasination/somethingelselikethat is Palestine. Theres a suicide (or homicide, depending on if your watching any other news source on the planet or Fox News) in Israel. theres a house demolishing/assasination/somethingelselikethat is Palestine. Theres a suicide (or homicide, depending on if your watching any other news source on the planet or Fox News) in Israel. theres a house demolishing/assasination/somethingelselikethat is Palestine.
In other words: Let's not compare this to the Palestine-Israel situation
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Shi Huangdi
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Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:30
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I am glad MtG was able to deal with bullies in an appropriate way, however it is not always an available option for everyone, as often times the victims are much weaker then the agressors, and is of course outnumbered.
"
Oh yes, and this lawsuit is ALLLLLLLL about that. No money damages at all, and the plaintiff's attorney's aren't in it for money or publicity either.
If you want to hold the *******s accountable, the appropriate forum is through the school. If you want to make money, the appropriate forum is through the courts."
Uh huh. And schools through their disciplinary actions are always able to keep bullies in tow. The Court in this case is able to do far more in terms of enforcing reperation and setting an example.
"So how far do we go in protecting the eggshell crowd from the mean nasty world out there? Anyone who commits suicide over "ridicule" has their own set of problems above and beyond the *******s who pick on them. The *******s need to be dealt with, but the "victims" need to get their own **** together. What next, they'll commit suicide or go postal when they get fired from a job because their self-esteem just can't cope with it?
There's a whole industry in the form of lawyers, shrinks, pop-shrinks, "self-help" authors, all making a fortune out of encouring everyone to find their inner victim and wallow in their victimhood. "
Research has pretty well established that victimization can cause psychological damage. Suicide is an extreme reaction, but it seems a little callous to blame children who are subjected to isolated and repeated physical and/or mental abuse for not being tough enough.
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
I am glad MtG was able to deal with bullies in an appropriate way, however it is not always an available option for everyone, as often times the victims are much weaker then the agressors, and is of course outnumbered.
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I had two school years where I was the low kid on the totem pole, due to extended, serious illnesses the previous summers. Sometimes, I was outnumbered in fights six one one or more, once nine on one.
Mostly the bastards are looking to prey on fear and submission, not to actually kick your ass, but if you resist, you get your ass kicked. So you have to learn to play along, until you're in a position to make a stand, then you have to really prove a point on one of them. You'll probably still get your ass kicked that time, but generally they move on after that.
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Uh huh. And schools through their disciplinary actions are always able to keep bullies in tow. The Court in this case is able to do far more in terms of enforcing reperation and setting an example.
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I doubt the average bully in school spends his days preoccupied with whether or not his parents might get sued for his actions. And yes, schools can do far more than they do, without going to the opposite neuroses exemplified by some abuses of "zero tolerance" policies that have occurred here in nutty San Diego.
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Research has pretty well established that victimization can cause psychological damage. Suicide is an extreme reaction, but it seems a little callous to blame children who are subjected to isolated and repeated physical and/or mental abuse for not being tough enough. |
When it comes to ongoing problems, "blame" is an issue I have really limited interest in, as opposed to fixing the problem. If someone is "not tough enough" or whatever you want to call it, and commits suicide, then litigation isn't going to help them either. People don't have "normal", well-adjusted, psychologically healthy lives, except for some *******s in school, and then commit suicide because of said *******s. The *******s push them over the edge, but there are root problems way before you get to that point that aren't being addressed.
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st_swithin
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10069
Nov 2002
time: 05:30
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You know, after a while, even the THREAT of a severe beating can be enough to cow the strongest souls.
Especially if you've taken enough beatings to substantiate the threat.
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:30
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MtG, I get your points about other problems, but get mine.
I see this court case as an example of punitive action for behaviour that can be seen as bullying. So long as nothing serious is done about bullying it will continue. The more it is demonstrated by people through schools, the courts, and the police that bullying will be punished in real terms, the more likely it will be that parents will curb this socially unacceptable behaviour in their own kids. That is why I like the fact that this case has been brought.
When people do bad things to other people, there should be and are consequences in just about all cases. It has not been so in the past with bullying. When I grew up it was more often the case that they who were bullied would be told to 'toughen up' and the bully or bullies might get a detention (if that). Well, that is changing and it needs to.
This case is just an example of the fact that bullying behaviour is not being tolerated anymore in some places, and that those who behave as bullies will face real consequences instead of having their behaviour largely ignored.
You don't agree with it. OK, but I'll bet many people will be paying more attention to the behaviour of their children towards others, and that will be a darned fine thing.
One last thing, bullying is often accomplished by harassment, theft, extortion, and or assault. On what planet would we tell an adult to buck up and get tough when faced with such acts in places they should be safe, like work? Why do some people expect children to suffer them, or 'get tough' and resort to assault in retaliation? These are really good things to be telling kids, aren't they?
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st_swithin
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10069
Nov 2002
time: 05:30
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My Dad always swore that if he couldn't leave me any money (which he didn't), he'd leave me exactly ONE THING:
The ability to take care of myself, no matter WHAT I went through.
As of today, I still have all my own teeth, fingers, and toes. I've got a LOT of scars and a handful of tattoos, and I like to believe I'm living EXACTLY the way he'd always hoped I would - INDEPENDENTLY.
Have you guys seen Gloria Estefan's hair lately?
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Shi Huangdi
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Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:30
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MtG:
"Mostly the bastards are looking to prey on fear and submission, not to actually kick your ass, but if you resist, you get your ass kicked. So you have to learn to play along, until you're in a position to make a stand, then you have to really prove a point on one of them. You'll probably still get your ass kicked that time, but generally they move on after that."
Come on, MtG. You know better to generalize your own situation and assume that your solution in your one school in your one particular circumstance. Often times the lowest kid on the totem poll is so physically underpowered to make any type of violence unrealalistic.
In my case, I am sad to say, I dealt with these types of people with the threat of violence and getting my friends to threaten violence and that worked well enough. With other people they were not able to do so. However, it cannot be at all an acceptable situation that people are forced to rely upon violence or suffer their circumstances. Jesus said to turn the other cheek as slapped, as Christians we should want a school environment in which violence is removed from the equation as much as possible.
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I doubt the average bully in school spends his days preoccupied with whether or not his parents might get sued for his actions."
Well, for high school if bullying meant a chance of losing $ he needs for college bullies might be a little more adverse, and threat of litigation against the parents might make the parents do more to ensure that their kids don't engage in this behavior.
"When it comes to ongoing problems, "blame" is an issue I have really limited interest in, as opposed to fixing the problem. If someone is "not tough enough" or whatever you want to call it, and commits suicide, then litigation isn't going to help them either. People don't have "normal", well-adjusted, psychologically healthy lives, except for some *******s in school, and then commit suicide because of said *******s. The *******s push them over the edge, but there are root problems way before you get to that point that aren't being addressed."
I can't agree. Being in the lowest postion socially, isolation, repeated physical and mental abuse, and being forced day in and day out to go into this abusive situation the person comes to dread can indeed lead to problems. Responses can vary, research has indicated victims offer suffer from depression or some form of psychological problem(even long after the bullying has ended!) Suicide of course would form the extreme end of the spectrum. Victims of this should be entitled to legal compensation. And again, as far as fixing the problem is concerned, the threat of legal action can be another factor added in dissuading people from bullying.
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:30
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
One last thing, bullying is often accomplished by harassment, theft, extortion, and or assault. On what planet would we tell an adult to buck up and get tough when faced with such acts in places they should be safe, like work? Why do some people expect children to suffer them, or 'get tough' and resort to assault in retaliation? These are really good things to be telling kids, aren't they? |
As opposed to telling them "if anyone says or does something to you that you don't like, be sure to run and tell the teacher, or tell us so we can sue."
The remedy needed depends on the situation. The adult world is also a bit different from the schoolyard, if you hadn't noticed.
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
MtG:
"Mostly the bastards are looking to prey on fear and submission, not to actually kick your ass, but if you resist, you get your ass kicked. So you have to learn to play along, until you're in a position to make a stand, then you have to really prove a point on one of them. You'll probably still get your ass kicked that time, but generally they move on after that."
Come on, MtG. You know better to generalize your own situation and assume that your solution in your one school in your one particular circumstance. Often times the lowest kid on the totem poll is so physically underpowered to make any type of violence unrealalistic.
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Believe it or not, I've actually known other people, been to more than one school, and seen this type of situation more than once. 
And oftentimes, the lowest kid on the totem pole who is so underpowered for reasons other than actual disability. A lot of underpowered kids get through without much adverse attention.
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In my case, I am sad to say, I dealt with these types of people with the threat of violence and getting my friends to threaten violence and that worked well enough. With other people they were not able to do so. However, it cannot be at all an acceptable situation that people are forced to rely upon violence or suffer their circumstances. Jesus said to turn the other cheek as slapped, as Christians we should want a school environment in which violence is removed from the equation as much as possible.
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Whether it's an acceptable situation, or one we want to face, is irrelevant. If it's the situation you're dealt, you deal with it as it is, not as you wish it was.
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"I doubt the average bully in school spends his days preoccupied with whether or not his parents might get sued for his actions."
Well, for high school if bullying meant a chance of losing $ he needs for college bullies might be a little more adverse, and threat of litigation against the parents might make the parents do more to ensure that their kids don't engage in this behavior.
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That's assuming the average bully is planning on going to college. I haven't met too many of those, but it depends on how you define "bully." I'm sure there are plenty of trial lawyers out there looking for an opportunity to extend tort law into the schoolyard, and of course, in the US, they'll include the school districts as defendants, going after the easier to get "deep pocket" i.e. the taxpayers.
Especially when you take it to a psychological level, there's a whole range of behavior from the snotty exclusive social groups to chronic harassment and hazing. Before you create the next trial lawyer's goldmine, better come up with some liability standards first.
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"When it comes to ongoing problems, "blame" is an issue I have really limited interest in, as opposed to fixing the problem. If someone is "not tough enough" or whatever you want to call it, and commits suicide, then litigation isn't going to help them either. People don't have "normal", well-adjusted, psychologically healthy lives, except for some *******s in school, and then commit suicide because of said *******s. The *******s push them over the edge, but there are root problems way before you get to that point that aren't being addressed."
I can't agree. Being in the lowest postion socially, isolation, repeated physical and mental abuse, and being forced day in and day out to go into this abusive situation the person comes to dread can indeed lead to problems. Responses can vary, research has indicated victims offer suffer from depression or some form of psychological problem(even long after the bullying has ended!) Suicide of course would form the extreme end of the spectrum. Victims of this should be entitled to legal compensation. And again, as far as fixing the problem is concerned, the threat of legal action can be another factor added in dissuading people from bullying. |
If the student is within the age appropriate norm psychologically, and the school something other than an unsupervised Lord of the flies hellhole, than the kind of severe and chronic abuse you're talking about is pretty damned rare. Lower levels of abuse are more common, and some degree of chickenshit is pretty universal, but you'd better have a policy definition of what is and what isn't grounds for legal action or disciplinary action within the school.
I don't buy that school officials can't exert reasonable control of what happens on campus - unless they want to take the path of least resistance. I assume other states have their own names and versions, but California has an entirely separate subsystem of continuation schools that deal with various kinds and types of problem kids. As far as I'm concerned, if the real *******s really want to act up and mess with other kids, let 'em go to school in Juvey. I still think that with the exception of clearly defined, exceptional cases, letting plaintiff's lawyers milk the schoolyard victim market is completely counterproductive.
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:30
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Do people run to the mounties or whoever and file charges because they're not popular with their neighbors? Or because the nasty neighbor says nasty things? |
Yes, in cases of persistent harrassment, people can be charged here. In cases of a single theft, assault, or act of extortion, charges are quite properly laid.
Would you prefer it otherwise? Why do you expect children to endure things no adult would?
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Ah, yes, let's take atypical extreme examples, rather then the much more common mundane ones.
I assume you have a juvenile criminal justice system there in Canada? And that if there's an actual chargeable offense committed, people can make complaints to the authorities? |
The problem is that acts that are committed by children on children are not deemed serious. The victim is supposed to 'get tough', just like your attitude herein.
Well frack that!
One child who died because society condoned criminal behaviour of children on children is one too many.
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:30
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Yes, in cases of persistent harrassment, people can be charged here. In cases of a single theft, assault, or act of extortion, charges are quite properly laid.
Would you prefer it otherwise? Why do you expect children to endure things no adult would?
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"He shoved me into my locker in the hallway"
"No I didn't, he wasn't watching, and he backed into me"
"He told me he was gonna kick my ass if I didn't give him a dollar"
"No I didn't, I asked if I could borrow a dollar to get a coke"
"He called me a nasty name, I wanna complain for harassment"
"He called me a nastier name first, I wanna complain for harassment, waaaah"
I can just see court systems filled with deep, serious, meaningful issues such as who shot the spitwads at little Johnny.
Not too long ago in the news, there was a deal about one school in the US that spent two million dollars installing 500 or so videocams for "security." Hey, great, I'm sure they had that money just lying around, and it didn't take away from any other programs. Now we can just extend the idea, and make sure that we schools keep archives of all these tapes and have tribunals (or let's let prosecutors deal with this ) to sort out every little verbal tiff and altercation, and alleged verbal tiff and altercation in school.
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The problem is that acts that are committed by children on children are not deemed serious. The victim is supposed to 'get tough', just like your attitude herein.
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Maybe if they're not serious acts, they're not taken seriously. Or are your school systems so messed up that if a kid gets a broken arm or broken nose from a fight, that gets blown off?
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Well frack that!
One child who died because society condoned criminal behaviour of children on children is one too many. |
Duuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! But that's hardly what we're talking about, is it?
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24-08-2003 00:27
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