23-08-2003 05:43									#61
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paiktis, why even bother to point to Nazi killings of civilians to deter terrorists when we, the US and the UK, killed hundreds of thousands of civilians for a similar purpose. As such, the Allied side has no right to complain about Nazi atrocities. In many respects, we were 10 times worse than the Nazi's.

	23-08-2003 05:45									#62
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THREADJACK ALERT

oh god no please don't, NOT ANOTHER dresden/hiroshima argument...

	23-08-2003 05:45									#63
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Ned, that's ridiculous.

	23-08-2003 05:46									#64
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NOOOOOOOO!!!!

We are utterly lost now.

	23-08-2003 05:47									#65
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker No, it doesn't. It's a lot easier to establish the answer to the (modified) question, so do it first. If it turns out the assumption of the question is untrue, scrap it. However, that's rather difficult to find out.

It does I'm afraid. However I hope I've given you a tiny bit of info of what is going on in the territories which you can chose to discard in an instant, as you propably will, or not as you see fit.

The purpose is not to "support the palestinians" but to support peace. Peace without truth and knowledge of all sides is not possible, or rather it is but for a limited time.

	23-08-2003 05:48									#66
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What's wrong with answering a simple question? Even if you think it's useless... how can it hurt?

	23-08-2003 05:51									#67
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Where's Fez?
He'll have the answer to this dilemma.

	23-08-2003 05:52									#68
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SlowwHand, I may have to kill you :P

btw, I just noticed your sig

	23-08-2003 05:55									#69
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You know what paiktis is doing, don't you?
Trying to divert your attention away from your cornbread, so he and his buddies can steal it.

You think I'm kidding, but I'm not.

	23-08-2003 05:56									#70
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How can you answer a question on the basis that it is impossible to know the answer?

Only Fez could do it granted.

	23-08-2003 05:58									#71
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand You know what paiktis is doing, don't you? Trying to divert your attention away from your cornbread, so he and his buddies can steal it. You think I'm kidding, but I'm not.

Apart from the issue at hand the cornbread is always my ultimate goal

	23-08-2003 05:58									#72
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1. The question is of your opinion, so it is possible to know the answer.

2. The question provides sufficient premises that it is possible to know the answer.

	23-08-2003 05:59									#73
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Fez, is an amazing man.

With that acknowledgement, I'll step out from between the 2 of you.

	23-08-2003 06:03									#74
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The question is of noone's opinion but the facts which you "forbit" me to have access to because you say they don't matter.

Provide me with the facts and you could answer too.
Saying that the facts are to be ommitted voids the question.

We say your avoidance" going sideways" where I come from

	23-08-2003 06:03									#75
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Just one thing, Paiktis: I have to get off now, so not answering further posts is NOT evasion

	23-08-2003 06:05									#76
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OK

	23-08-2003 06:40									#77
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This will probably provoke more terrorism. Just want Sharon wants.

	23-08-2003 07:13									#78
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Unlike every single person on apolyton, I actually experienced these Israeli 'reprisals'... when i was very young, my family was in a Lebanese city (either Beirut or Sidon) when the Israelis bombed and shelled to target 'terrorists'. i was in this school-like thing when it started and my father had to rush in to save me and take me home (where we had to stay in some place to minimize the risk of things falling on us) amid the explosions... i easily could have died then...

I hate the state of israel and demand that it no longer exist

	23-08-2003 08:07									#79
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Maybe Paiktis is right. Maybe this isn't worth talking about and we should all just troll.

	23-08-2003 08:09									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Unlike every single person on apolyton, I actually experienced these Israeli 'reprisals'... when i was very young, my family was in a Lebanese city (either Beirut or Sidon) when the Israelis bombed and shelled to target 'terrorists'. i was in this school-like thing when it started and my father had to rush in to save me and take me home (where we had to stay in some place to minimize the risk of things falling on us) amid the explosions... i easily could have died then... I hate the state of israel and demand that it no longer exist

Are you sure it was Israel which created the blast? Remember there was a three way civil war going on and there were lots and LOTS of explosions set by all sides.

	23-08-2003 08:13									#81
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paiktis:

quote: The purpose is not to "support the palestinians" but to support peace. Peace without truth and knowledge of all sides is not possible, or rather it is but for a limited time.

speak for yourself... **** peace as long as a racist state like Israel is in existance... it still boggles my mind how the so-called enlightened United Nations could ever create a 'ethnic homeland' in our time... in the 20th century! After disproving and defeating the racist attempts at German and Japanese racial empires! crazy...

and lets not forget the deplorable conditions of the palestinian people... we can't have peace til everybody gets a piece... these people need economic oppurtunities that dont seem to be coming... hell, half the time their villagers got IDF tanks rolling through them or are being bombed and shelled... i can understand how they don't got a stable economy that is getting foreign investment...

	23-08-2003 08:17									#82
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Oerdin... i am aware of that. this happened in 87 or 88... nevertheless, i was told by my mother that it was israelis that time... i actually do remember the incident... it was one of my first memories (sad that most people's first memories is of happy things like their 2nd birthday party... mine was of hearing air raid sirens and there being explosions all around me) but i was 2 or 3 at the time so its all vague.

i dont blame the palestinians and lebanese for being so hostile against israel if what i experienced happens nearly everyday for them...

	23-08-2003 08:56									#83
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Could it be because the PA is a corrupt POS, that they

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer and lets not forget the deplorable conditions of the palestinian people... we can't have peace til everybody gets a piece... these people need economic oppurtunities that dont seem to be coming... hell, half the time their villagers got IDF tanks rolling through them or are being bombed and shelled... i can understand how they don't got a stable economy that is getting foreign investment...

Why do you suppose no one want's to invest money into Pa controlled territoiries? Could it be that the PA is a corrupt POS, that Islamic terrorism is supported by all levels of society, and because the PA has rejected all offers of peace? You can't claim Israel is responsible for everything bad which has ever happened to Palestinians when it is obvious their own leadership screws them even worse.

	23-08-2003 09:06									#84
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Oerdin:

first of all, the PA is not an actual nation-state... it's more like an organization made up of very different individuals who can not agree on the same goals, etc. and are prone to taking things into their own hands (a la the jihads).

keeping this in mind, the reasons for your problems with the PA become clear... how can they accept peace offers when they're not a centralized nation? peace offers are controversial even among Israelis but they at least got a central gov't to facilitate debate and then agree on a resolution through a majority consensus... the PA has no such system as they are not a nation...

terrorism? do you honestly think people who declare jihads just for the hell of it? economics plays a big role into driving someone into such a frenzy. have no real economy, have high unemployment, etc. and you give people no real incentive to live so of course they become militants... and I had a talk with Siro over private message before where he said that some islamic groups actually do help out the people by organizing them, having charities, and trying to help start businesses and foster community and all that... so they aren't all just AK-47 wielding terrorist bombers... many aspects of these so-called terrorist groups do try to help people out.

	23-08-2003 09:10									#85
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 2.000 Palestinians just happened to die of natural causes the last 12 months?

Please document this.

	23-08-2003 09:16									#86
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And the Nazi party started all sorts of social programs in Germany but in the end they were still swine. IJ and Hamas use these charities as a front for their muderous organizations and as a public relations tool.

There is a central control for the PA. If it wanted to take a stand and lead their people to a better life they could have done so years ago but they won't because Arafat and the others want to keep fighting for ever using even the most unethical means. You are right that having a bad economy spurs extremism, yet, who is to blame for this bad econmy? Is it the Israelis who seem stuck perptually responding to attacks or is it the PA which is run by Kleptocrates, extortionists, murders, and thugs? No one, not even a Palestinian, wants to start a business in PA controlled areas because the PA acts like the mafia or like thieves even to their own people.

	23-08-2003 09:17									#87
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AS, "how can they accept peace offers"?

Are you saying that Oslo and The Roadmap were complete wastes of time from the outset?

	23-08-2003 09:25									#88
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Mad Monk:

yes they were complete wastes of time because the PA never had the capability to enforce such peace... we're not talking about a nation that could give an order to its military saying "don't fight the war anymore"

	23-08-2003 09:27									#89
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Then we should let those who can take care of the problem, take care of the problem.

	23-08-2003 09:29									#90
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AS: If the PA had accepted peace the world would have turned them into the legitimate government and the aid money would have pored in. Arafat easily could have done it but he didn't because his control rest on there being a war. Without a war why would you need a warrior? He would have been pushed aside and someone like the current Prime Minister would have been elected. Thus Arafat choices to keep fanning the flames and keeps sponoring terrorism.