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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:30
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Oerdin:
Sharon easily could have done it but he didn't because his control rest on there being a war. Without a war why would you need a warrior (since god knows how long a soldier in the IDF)? Thus Sharon chooses to keep fanning the flames and keeps inciting terrorism through israeli reprisals...
see i could say the same thing of sharon and it makes as much sense...
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Thorgal
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Tarifa, Cádiz.
Jan 2002
time: 05:30
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quote:
Will there ever be peace?
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Very simple. There are four million Palestinians that have been expelled from his land. Some days ago Sharon said that they will NEVER be allowed to come back to his home. Then, obviously, there will NEVER be peace.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:30
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quote:
Very simple. There are four million Palestinians that have been expelled from his land. |
Either you dont know what you're talking about, or you're lying.
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In case someone hadnt noticed yet... Israel is not doing any major actions for more than 48 hours now. Abu Mazen and Dahlan had/have more than enough time to do something.
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Thorgal
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Tarifa, Cádiz.
Jan 2002
time: 05:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Eli
Either you dont know what you're talking about, or you're lying.
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Nevertheless I am sure you are simply lying.
85% of the inhabitants in the historic Palestine have been expelled from 531 of their cities and villages, which means more than two thirds of the Palestinian population. Thus, nearly four million refugees are currently registered at the UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency). This Palestinian population is split up between the camps of the West Bank of Jordan, Gaza, Jordan, Lebanon as well as Syria and is composed of the displaced, who lived in Palestine from the 1st of June 1946 to the 15th of May 1948 as well as their descendants, who lost their place of residence and their livelihood because of the 1948 conflict. There is nearly 1 more million refugees who have not been listed, such as the residents of the Palestine under mandate between 1948 and 1967, residents from outside the zone of intervention of the UNRWA (Egypt, Iraq), the refugees of 1967 or wealthy Palestinians, exiled in 1948 and not registered by the UNRWA.
Please, now dont tell us the official historiography from Israel: the myths of the Palestinians´ "voluntary exodus". 
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Jack_www
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As long as the Palestinians want to see Isreal driven into the sea and they support terrorist there wil never be peace in the middle east. There is no execuse for terrorist killing children and other unarmed people. It would be very different if they were fightin the millitary, but instead they go after the denfenseless. This is just sicking and all the terrorist deverse to die for the crimes they commit.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:30
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quote:
Originally posted by thorgalaeg
Nevertheless I am sure you are simply lying.
85% of the inhabitants in the historic Palestine have been expelled from 531 of their cities and villages, which means more than two thirds of the Palestinian population. Thus, nearly four million refugees are currently registered at the UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency). This Palestinian population is split up between the camps of the West Bank of Jordan, Gaza, Jordan, Lebanon as well as Syria and is composed of the displaced, who lived in Palestine from the 1st of June 1946 to the 15th of May 1948 as well as their descendants, who lost their place of residence and their livelihood because of the 1948 conflict. There is nearly 1 more million refugees who have not been listed, such as the residents of the Palestine under mandate between 1948 and 1967, residents from outside the zone of intervention of the UNRWA (Egypt, Iraq), the refugees of 1967 or wealthy Palestinians, exiled in 1948 and not registered by the UNRWA.
Please, now dont tell us the official historiography from Israel: the myths of the Palestinians´ "voluntary exodus". |
Oh really, so all those millions were "expelled from his land"?
400,000 left. Rough guess... Half of them are already dead.
If for about 3 generations now they and their fellow Arabs cant take care of 4 million of their descendants, that's their problem, not mine.
Israel absorbed 600,000 refugees(double it's original population) in 1948-1951. Yet you dont see them in refugee camps whining about the Arab states that expelled them.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:30
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I never did understand why terrorists resort to terrorism... take suicide bombing for example... a soldier in the jihad is lost and takes out a handful of israeli civilians... wouldn't it be smarter to equip the soldier with weapons and send him out on a guerilla war against the Israeli military? He could probably do more damage if no other reason than he has more than one shot to harm Israel.
Mr. President:
yep and in the end, 2pac says, "we can never have peace til we all get a piece... **** police..."
yeah thats what the palestinians need... someone (the israelis) not constantly beating them down and they need some economic oppurtunity. you may say its the PA's fault but you can't deny that the Israelis are not beating down the palestinians every time there is a reprisal...
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Thorgal
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Tarifa, Cádiz.
Jan 2002
time: 05:30
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quote:
400,000 left. Rough guess... Half of them are already dead.
If for about 3 generations now they and their fellow Arabs cant take care of 4 million of their descendants, that's their problem, not mine. |
Ahhh. Enough said. You convinced me.
The analysis of the Dalet Plan or D Plan clearly reveals the intention of the Zionist high commander to conquer the Arab Palestine, to destroy its community and expel its members in order to create the State of Israel (Khalidi, 2002:66). The meticulous analysis of the report by the intelligence services of the Haganah on 30 June 1948 shows that 73% of the departures, with 400 000 Palestinians constrained to exile before the arrival of the Arab armies in June 1948, were caused by the Israelis. (B. Morris and T. Segev quoted by Vidal, 2002: 126). Nearly 35 massacres were committed in order to submit the remaining population to a military and psychological pressure so as to accelerate the exodus (Abou Sitta, 2000: 16-20).
Furthermore, the systematic policy of plundering and property robberies has been recently brought to light by the opening of the Israeli archives (B.Morris quoted by Marsalha, 2002:45-46). In December 1948, Israelis passed a law on the abandoned properties, in order to legitimate the expropriation of nearly 92% of the territory. Palestinians that had been expelled were declared absent, so as to make it possible to get hold of their lands and homes. According to an Israeli historian, Simpha Flapan, 300 000 hectares of land, 73 000 dwellings in the abandoned homes, 7800 shops, workshops and warehouses and 5 million of Palestinians pounds, which were on bank accounts, were stolen (Vidal, 2002: 129). This policy continued until the second expulsion of 150 000 Palestinians (which will be followed by 300 000 more), during the 1967 War.
Last edited by Thorgal on 23-08-2003 at 23:18
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Traianvs
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Belgium, land of plenty (corruption)
Jan 2000
time: 06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
i could get picture like that of urban renewal in Washington or Baltimore. Without context it doesnt really tell anything. |
Paiktis is right though; I have seen a documentary in which I could see it all with my own eyes. A reporter went up there to check it all out; houses were bulldozered without notice beforehand... They have to leave their houses immediately, losing everything in it, losing their property etc... The whole area near the border of Palestine areas get bulldozered to provide Israel with a clear open field, guarded by tanks and wathposts with snipers... The reporter and some others went up closer to the watchtowers and they were being shot at, for real.. you could see the bullets splat into buildings pretty close to them.
There were western protesters (y'all southern mofos would call them damn hippies) too up there, and one day one of these people got bulldozered, a gruesome death.. and they knew she was standing there. Okay it was her fault she didn't go away, because I don't think she expected to get bulldozered... When they wanted to put a memorial there for her, an Israeli tank came up there and started firing away, => everybody runs in panic...
If that's the way these kids have to grow up, how would you be like.. would you be a meek and stupid motherfacker getting bullied? I think you would hate the enemy enormously..
Another time, a British cameramen got shot in the head and died. He was filming in a nearby school, for some obscure reason the ISraeli started shooting at the school (with all the kids inside) so they all left the building and ran away... outside though, the camerman got a headshot, the Israeli bastards later claimed he was holding a rocketlauncher 
First of all, if you can make a headshot, then you can see he's holding a camera, and second of all, in a school full of children??????
Now, later, he needed urgent medical help, and after long discussion he was allowed for transport to an Israeli hospital, he was put in a Palestine ambulance, but at the border they were not allowed to come close to the border... again later, he was allowed over the border, but he couldn't be saved anymore... because of all the time wasted by Israeli officials..
They were afraid of a terrorist attack... ffs jezus they were carrying a British journalist!
I felt sick after seeing the documentary, it's sheer oppression of Palestine, nothing else. I understand how suicide bombers think, even though I know it's not the right way for quick peace, but I understand
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:30
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quote:
And the usual suspects will also show up to blame the Palestinians for everything.
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You know it 
j/k
quote:
(1) The Israelis get a big heaping share of the blame. This is not a war as there is only one state here - Israel. |
not exact.
It's a war between a state, a state like entity and paramilitary terrorist organzations that hide among civilians.
War is not only between states or "governments".
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The Palestinian people have no rights and no recourse when they are abused. |
Not entirely correct.
They can appeal to the Israeli High Court of Justice and they do. Just a year ago, Palestinian civilians that were hurt in military actions in the frist intifada (87-90) have won reperations for their damages, from the Israeli government.
Other law-suits stopped several Israeli tactics, and the Palestinians often file suits against the ruining of their homes, which sets the process back for a day or two, and may at times cancel it completely (though I don't recall specific cases now).
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Their dignity is constantly under assault. |
Correct. But that is a result of the situation they are in. Their dignity isn't assaulted as a tactic. More blame on stupidity than evil intentions by Israel.
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If a settlement "needs" the land, the land is expropriated. |
Not entirely correct. Often settlements expand on their own, and the Israeli government allows the land to be expropriated post factum, after there are already houses and families in the area. This more likely to a large lobby of Settlers, and less due to evil plans.
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there is no security in the future and no opportunity for the Palestinians. |
Sure there is, if they start securing their streets against militias. IDF is there while they do nothing. Israel has stated and restated, that as soon as Palestinians start policing themselves, including against terrorists, they would withdraw.
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The Israelis constantly cause "collateral damage" (i.e. the slaughter of bystanders) when they launch missles into apartment buildings. |
war. **** happens.
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"Extra-judicial killings"? Try assassinations! No due process, no recourse for injustice. |
Try - military actions against known combatants in hiding.
There is no due process in war. This is not policing action where you get a court warrent or something. It's war. Military. Boom.
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Gee, if you kick a dog long enough, you get a mean, vicious dog. Same with people. The Israelis reap what they sow. |
Gee, if you kick a dog long enough, you get a mean, vicious dog. Same with people. The Palestinians reap what they sow.
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(2) The Palestinians get a big heaping share of the blame. The Israelis are not the Nazis. They are not out to systematically exterminate the Palestinians. Non-violent resistance and civil disobedience are the proper responses. If Israel wants to be Bull Connor - let it. Block the bus, don't bomb it. Eventually even the US will say this is nonsense and Israel will have to do the right thing (and it will be safe to do so for them) of find themselves completely isolated in the world community. The Palestinians need a MLK Jr. or a Ghandi. |
Agreed.
quote:
(3) The world community gets the remaining blame. Obviously, the Israelis and Palestinians are incapable of resolving their problems. A fair solution must be imposed. There is too much blood between these people for them to ever come to an agreement. What we have are 2 five year-olds - but bloody and armed to the hilt. Time to crack some skulls and give both sides a deal they equally love and equally hate. These guys are the poster children for bringing back British colonialism. |
I say we can't have this situation of stable slaughter anymore.
Either leave us alone and let the victor be decided, or force a solution and enforce it. I mean really. Not pancy UN peacekeepers who give cover to Hezballah.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:30
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quote:
The reporter and some others went up closer to the watchtowers and they were being shot at, for real.. you could see the bullets splat into buildings pretty close to them.
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Trust me. Those were warning shots. The Israelis are bad aimers (sadly) but not THAT bad.
Warning shots is a standard military procedure. If the journalists are ignoring no-entry zones... their problem.
quote:
There were western protesters (y'all southern mofos would call them damn hippies) too up there, and one day one of these people got bulldozered, a gruesome death.. and they knew she was standing there. Okay it was her fault she didn't go away, because I don't think she expected to get bulldozered... When they wanted to put a memorial there for her, an Israeli tank came up there and started firing away, => everybody runs in panic...
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Yep, standing in the evening before a heavily protected bulldozer with very poor visibility of things next to it, and when it raises alot of dust.
This is as smart as going to any construction site, standing infront of a large bulldozer and hoping it'll see you and stop. There's a chance he won't see you.
The pictures shown in the media were infact taken several hours apart and the incident itself was not captured.
Setting up a grave stone in the middle of a military closed area, where houses have already been demolished. Good idea 
quote:
Another time, a British cameramen got shot in the head and died. He was filming in a nearby school, for some obscure reason the ISraeli started shooting at the school (with all the kids inside) so they all left the building and ran away... outside though, the camerman got a headshot, the Israeli bastards later claimed he was holding a rocketlauncher
First of all, if you can make a headshot, then you can see he's holding a camera, and second of all, in a school full of children??????
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Huh?
The only incident i remember where a cameraman was shot in the head happenned in dead night.
quote:
Now, later, he needed urgent medical help, and after long discussion he was allowed for transport to an Israeli hospital, he was put in a Palestine ambulance, but at the border they were not allowed to come close to the border... again later, he was allowed over the border, but he couldn't be saved anymore... because of all the time wasted by Israeli officials..
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There's a reason Palestinian ambulances are held up and are not allowed to pass.
The Palestinians have very oftently used ambulances to secretly transport weapons and wanted persons. The IDF can't possibly be sure it really is a brittish journalist and not a terrorist. And it doesn't matter whether he is a palestinian or brit. The policy isn't meant to stop palestinians specifically from moving around. It's meant to cut all possible routes for suspects.
I'm sure Eli can upload a video or two of Palestinian ambulances filled with weapons.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:30
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quote:
85% of the inhabitants in the historic Palestine have been expelled from 531 of their cities and villages, which means more than two thirds of the Palestinian population. |
1. Historic Palestine is Israel + West Bank + Jordan. I am sure you do not pretain that Israel kicked otu people from the west bank and jordan in 1948.
2. Number wise. Before the war of 1948, the census of western palestine had some 1.2 M palestinians. some 800K lived in the area to become post 1949 Israel. In an Israeli census of 1951, there were around 160K Palestinians.
That leaves the difference to be 640K.
In 1952 IIRC, UNRWA estimated the number of refugees to be around 750K.
The fact that they have multiplied over 5 times fold, is their own problem.
quote:
Thus, nearly four million refugees are currently registered at the UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency). |
Refugees who are sons and cousins of refugees. Most of which never even lived in Israel.
quote:
This Palestinian population is split up between the camps of the West Bank of Jordan, Gaza, Jordan, Lebanon as well as Syria and is composed of the displaced, who lived in Palestine from the 1st of June 1946 to the 15th of May 1948 as well as their descendants, who lost their place of residence and their livelihood because of the 1948 conflict. |
quote:
There is nearly 1 more million refugees who have not been listed, such as the residents of the Palestine under mandate between 1948 and 1967 |
what exactly are you talking about?
what mandate? what paelstine?
quote:
residents from outside the zone of intervention of the UNRWA (Egypt, Iraq) |
are you sure they aren't registered? 
quote:
the refugees of 1967 |
quote:
UNRWA estimated that during the fighting 175,000 of its registrants fled for a second time and approximately 350,000 fled for the first time. About 200,000 moved to Jordan, 115,000 to Syria and approximately 35,000 left Sinai for Egypt. Most of the Arabs who left came from the West Bank.
Israel allowed some West Bank Arabs to return. In 1967, more than 9,000 families were reunited and, by 1971, Israel had readmitted 40,000 refugees. By contrast, in July 1968, Jordan prohibited people intending to remain in the East Bank from emigrating from the West Bank and Gaza.69
--
69 UNRWA Annual Reports, (July 1, 1966-June 30, 1967), pp. 11-19; (July 1, 1967-June 30, 1968), pp. 4-10; (July 1, 1968-June 30, 1969), p. 6; (July 1, 1971-June 30, 1972), p. 3
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wealthy Palestinians, exiled in 1948 and not registered by the UNRWA. |
what is this based on?
obviously the palestinains did not remain wealthy after the expultion and at the time certainly were poor and have indeed registered. They might have acquired wealth since, but I see no reason for them to forfeit their status as refugees.
quote:
Please, now dont tell us the official historiography from Israel: the myths of the Palestinians´ "voluntary exodus". |
quote:
On January 30, 1948, the Jaffa newspaper, Ash Sha'ab, reported: "The first of our fifth-column consists of those who abandon their houses and businesses and go to live elsewhere....At the first signs of trouble they take to their heels to escape sharing the burden of struggle."8
Another Jaffa paper, As Sarih (March 30, 1948) excoriated Arab villagers near Tel Aviv for "bringing down disgrace on us all by 'abandoning the villages.'"9
--
8 Ash Sha*ab, (January 30, 1948).
9 As Sarih, (March 30, 1948).
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quote:
In his memoirs, Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, also admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave:
“Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.”26
--
26 The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, (Beirut, 1973), Part 1, pp. 386-387.
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quote:
The analysis of the Dalet Plan or D Plan clearly reveals the intention of the Zionist high commander to conquer the Arab Palestine, to destroy its community and expel its members in order to create the State of Israel (Khalidi, 2002:66). |
Quote actual text about plan D.
quote:
The meticulous analysis of the report by the intelligence services of the Haganah on 30 June 1948 shows that 73% of the departures, with 400 000 Palestinians constrained to exile before the arrival of the Arab armies in June 1948, were caused by the Israelis.
(B. Morris and T. Segev quoted by Vidal, 2002: 126). |
quote:
A plethora of evidence exists demonstrating that Palestinians were encouraged to leave their homes to make way for the invading Arab armies.
The Economist, a frequent critic of the Zionists, reported on October 2, 1948: "Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit....It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."
Time's report of the battle for Haifa (May 3, 1948) was similar: "The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by orders of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city....By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa."
Benny Morris, the historian who documented instances where Palestinians were expelled, also found that Arab leaders encouraged their brethren to leave. The Arab National Committee in Jerusalem, following the March 8, 1948, instructions of the Arab Higher Committee, ordered women, children and the elderly in various parts of Jerusalem to leave their homes: "Any opposition to this order...is an obstacle to the holy war...and will hamper the operations of the fighters in these districts" (Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986).
Morris also said that in early May units of the Arab Legion reportedly ordered the evacuation of all women and children from the town of Beisan. The Arab Liberation Army was also reported to have ordered the evacuation of another village south of Haifa. The departure of the women and children, Morris says, "tended to sap the morale of the menfolk who were left behind to guard the homes and fields, contributing ultimately to the final evacuation of villages. Such two-tier evacuation — women and children first, the men following weeks later — occurred in Qumiya in the Jezreel Valley, among the Awarna bedouin in Haifa Bay and in various other places."
Who gave such orders? Leaders like Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, who declared: "We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down."24
The Secretary of the Arab League Office in London, Edward Atiyah, wrote in his book, The Arabs: "This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastings of an unrealistic Arabic press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to reenter and retake possession of their country."25
--
25 Edward Atiyah, The Arabs, (London: Penguin Books, 1955), p. 183.
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quote:
Nearly 35 massacres were committed in order to submit the remaining population to a military and psychological pressure so as to accelerate the exodus (Abou Sitta, 2000: 16-20). |
Quote actual text please.
quote:
Furthermore, the systematic policy of plundering and property robberies has been recently brought to light by the opening of the Israeli archives (B.Morris quoted by Marsalha, 2002:45-46). In December 1948, Israelis passed a law on the abandoned properties, in order to legitimate the expropriation of nearly 92% of the territory. |
Have you actually read B. Morris, or only accounts of his writings, by Arab scholars?
If you are interested, do read B. Morris himself instead of people who quote, or misquote him.
And if you are interested, here's an article by E. Karsh, which compares the original hebrew documents which B. Morris quoted, and the english translations he used in his books. It shows that he sometimes misquoted them, and at times was generally over zealous to get an anti-Israeli point accross.
http://www.meforum.org/article/466
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:30
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quote:
Yup. Let's add internal politics. |
good thinking.
quote:
Sharon will not confront the settlers, and he hasn't put forward any peace plan apart from giving some sort of Bantustan to the Palestinians. Much of his cabinet has been against the road map, and I think he belongs to that camp no matter what his lip service to it. |
I personally think that Sharon feels he shouldn't confront the settlers as long as he isn't absolutely sure about the success of the Roadmap.
If Sharon goes hard on the settlers and then it amounts to nothing, he will lose, and eventually the settlers will be stronger (the "i told you so" effect).
But Sharon has gotten tougher on settlers, and the Shin Bet has finally managed to crack down on a network of Jewish settler terrorists. They are suspected of beign behind many attacks and even several bombings, aimed against Palestinians.
This has been a rather tough job since the settlers are a very closed and ideologic society, and hard to penetrate.
quote:
It seems Arafat has undermined a crackdown on Hamas. Neither has he put farward any peace solution. We now have Abbas sqeezed between a rock and a bulldozer. Arafat is back in the game. |
Agreed.
IF you listened to the news, you'd hear he has just sidelined Dahlan, the Minister of Seurity. The only one who began taking seriously the mission of training and employing a strong police force.
Arafat has done so exactly the next day after Dahlan reportedly ordered a crackdown on Hamas forces and weapons tunnels.
This sends a strong message to the people - Arafat is against curbing Hamas.
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The policy to ignore him was stupid from the beginning, and Powell has asked Arafat already to help. Which is odd now, to put it mildly. If Sharon exiles Arafat, he'll make it only worse. |
I agree that bouncing him from darkness to spotlight is bad.
But it has done good. It is only sad that the job is unfinished, and he isn't exiled / dead.
Meanwhile Dahlan began doing something. 0.1% of what he ought to. But Arafat stopped it the next day.
quote:
The road map is dead. Bush's drivel about "Great and hopeful change is coming to the Middle East" was just that, drivel. The recent escalation is also a great boon to Islamists seeking to attack American troops (and everything they associate with it, including the UN) in Iraq. |
It's not a boon. Rather an excuse.
(if boon is another word for excuse, then I'll feel stupid  ).
The Islamists are probably operated by Baath, Iran and Syria with the clear goal of signaling America that installing order in the ME is a bad idea.
Obviously these countries are now scared for their own skin, and while try to appear to be cooperative, they do their best to turn Iraq into a vietnam, to secure themselves in the future.
quote:
In short, the extremists on both sides are in control. And many will pay with their life for that. |
yep. basically.
Btw, this is a good thought provoking post. Much better than several things you wrote in the previous months / years.
[/q]
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HershOstropoler
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Sirotnikov:
"I personally think that Sharon feels he shouldn't confront the settlers as long as he isn't absolutely sure about the success of the Roadmap."
And Abbas felt he wouldn't confront the terrorists as long as he isn't absolutely sure about the success of the Roadmap. There will never be a solution that way.
"But it has done good. It is only sad that the job is unfinished, and he isn't exiled / dead."
Further escalation will achieve nothing.
"It's not a boon. Rather an excuse."
A benefit. Great propaganda material.
"Obviously these countries are now scared for their own skin"
After the Iraq trouble, they have little to worry about.
"Btw, this is a good thought provoking post. Much better than several things you wrote in the previous months / years."
99 % of the posts here do not deserve a good reply.
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23-08-2003 09:33
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