23-08-2003 20:51									#1
	Why do East Asians still hold grudges against Japan? Suffering from ads?

Why do Asians still hold WWII grudges, when it happened a long time ago? Not that grudges aren't held in Europe for the Nazis, but I can't think of a time when it really rose to the policy level--they're just personal. (You might consider Haider in Austria as WWII ghosts rising to the policy level--I don't know.) Rather, Germany is thought to be an important part of the EU.

I'm reminded of this because China is making a big deal of one guy dieing from mustard gas poisioning from a left over barrel from WWII. It appears that Japan is going to make compensation, but China insists on whipping Japan over this at the highest levels.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3175463.stm

Further, if they hold so many grudges, why don't these countries give the US props for putting the smackdown on the Japanese? If the Asians really remembered their history, the US would be the most popular country in the neighborhood. Instead, we hear a lot of thinly masked xenophobia toward the US. Even among our allies in SK!

Lastly, there seem to be some Eastern Asian countries that are less stuck in the past. The US has good relations with Vietnam, for instance, and there seems to be very little personal animosity among the Vietnamese people against the US. Is this a difference in culture among different groups of Asians?

	23-08-2003 20:56									#2
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quote: Why do East Asians still hold grudges against Japan?

The historical whitewashing of Japanese war crime that goes on in thier educational system could have something to do with it.

	23-08-2003 20:57									#3
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Well, the Japanese were not nice at all with East Asian countries during WW2. Some of their deeds are among the most barbaric ever done by Mankind (Nakings massacres...). And grudge over such young events isn't surprising.
Heck, in France, there is a lot of Anti-German feeling because, you know, German are all nazis and barbarians (I can't bear hearing that). And this despite a 50 years old effort to bring the two countries together.

The fact that Japan never made real efforts into acknowledging this horrible events, and the fact that other countries never tried to actively befriend with Japan explains that the grudge has very narrowly calmed down. A population's grudge can last long, very long.

	23-08-2003 21:00									#4
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Except in America. There it lasts from four to eight years

	23-08-2003 21:01									#5
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quote: Do East Asians still hold grudges against Japan?

Roger, that would be a big 10-4.

They hold a grudge because they've been trained to while in school just as black Americans have been trained to hold a grudge. I really don't see all of the pent up hate and rage as being useful but apparntly the political class in east Asia does since they keep the cycle going.

	23-08-2003 21:02									#6
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I think Germany has been far more penitent for what it has done then Japan has.

	23-08-2003 21:04									#7
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Well, perhaps Europeans should hold more of a grudge against Germany. Their crimes are perhaps only marginally less heinous. Whatdy'all think?

	23-08-2003 21:04									#8
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Except in America. There it lasts from four to eight years

America has only known paltry humiliations in comparison to what other people have known. I mean, Sept. 11 is your worst trauma, and it came 50 years after the other major trauma that was Pearl Harbor.
These two events are petty compared to what other people have endured. I'm pretty sure that if a foreign country basically levelled NY or LA, you wouldn't forgive it in decades... Same thing if a foreign country had occupied you for years and humiliated you everyday during this period.

	23-08-2003 21:05									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I think Germany has been far more penitent for what it has done then Japan has.

I personally think Germany has taken thier personal guilt trip a little too far though.

	23-08-2003 21:06									#10
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Well, perhaps Europeans should hold more of a grudge against Germany. Whatdy'all think?

No. Because Germany has been penitent... It's actually the most Penitent country on Earth. The Germans can give lessons to everybody about how to acknowledge and mourn past horrors.

Japan OTOH, has done like if nothing was wrong.

	23-08-2003 21:06									#11
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I think he was joking.

	23-08-2003 21:07									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I'm pretty sure that if a foreign country basically levelled NY or LA, you wouldn't forgive it in decades...

Hell, if I could get the Japanese to level LA then I'd pay them.

	23-08-2003 21:09									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor America has only known paltry humiliations in comparison to what other people have known. I mean, Sept. 11 is your worst trauma, and it came 50 years after the other major trauma that was Pearl Harbor. These two events are petty compared to what other people have endured. I'm pretty sure that if a foreign country basically levelled NY or LA, you wouldn't forgive it in decades... Same thing if a foreign country had occupied you for years and humiliated you everyday during this period.

Whenever people complain about US foriegn and military policy I will think of this quote. It is so true. This is why we do what we do. To keep us from ever having the described "humiliations". We are fortunate, but we always are working to keep the major problems away from our boarder. This result is not luck...it is resolve.

	23-08-2003 21:13									#14
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I don't agree that Japan hasn't been penitent. Look at their actions compared with the Germans. While Germany has a military that goes outside of its borders regularly, Japan has a tough time sending troops anywhere.

Also, pacifism is so ingrained that it is a question whether her troops would even fire in self defense were they outside of her borders.

Lastly, German industry has been no less hesitant to settle claims against them for the war.

	23-08-2003 21:17									#15
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Indeed Plato.

That made me think of this part of the Rule Britannia:

quote: Britons never will be slaves

This is a very strong statement, and this comes from centuries of Britannia being conquered by Romans, Saxons, Vikings, Normans...
But maybe there is another way to protect yourself than to indulge said humiliations to other people ?

	23-08-2003 21:21									#16
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I don't agree that Japan hasn't been penitent. Look at their actions compared with the Germans. While Germany has a military that goes outside of its borders regularly, Japan has a tough time sending troops anywhere. Also, pacifism is so ingrained that it is a question whether her troops would even fire in self defense were they outside of her borders.

Japan has been penitent wrt to its militarism. More so than the Germans (who have been encouraged not to be too penitent since the beginning of the cold war BTW).
However, Japan hasn't been penitent towards their past evil deeds. The Germans have completely changed their society and relationship to authority, the German population has cultivated guilt for 50 years, with the government's blessing, all in the light of nazi horrors.
The Japanese haven't done so. Unlike the very anti-nazi Germans, I doubt the Japanese even feel bad for the past horrors that they have done. To me, they are similar to Turks and the Armenian genocide.

	23-08-2003 21:22									#17
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Remember Pearl Harbor. Thank God for the atom bomb.

	23-08-2003 21:24									#19
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America's "resolve" is its luck.

	23-08-2003 21:29									#20
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Lastly, German industry has been no less hesitant to settle claims against them for the war.

This isn't true. While some German industries have been hesitant, many German companies were very compliant with making reparations. Volkswagen stands out among them, as well as many of the German banks. In fact, in some instances it has gone too far. It's one thing to try and make amends through reparations and becoming a civic-minded entity, quite another to bankrupt one's self and ruin one's employees when none of the people in the company were responsible for what happened 60 years ago.

I think Spiffor is spot-on in that Japan as a society has been far, far less willing to accept responsibility for their atrocities agains their neighbors. I also think one of the big reasons for this is the atomic bomb, as it gives the Japanese a wedge issue that they can use to cloud things and evoke national self-pity. We may have used the a-bomb as a weapon of war, but now it's used as a shield against Japanese introspection.

	23-08-2003 21:29									#21
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quote: I doubt the Japanese even feel bad for the past horrors that they have done

Why should they? We're about 3 generations removed from the fight.

	23-08-2003 21:32									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Hell, if I could get the Japanese to level LA then I'd pay them.

Well, that's perfectly understandable

	23-08-2003 21:32									#23
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To an American, something that happened 50 years ago is ancient history. To an Asian, with a consistent cultural heritage thousands of years old, 50 years is practically yesterday. It doesn't help that the Japanese never apologised or even admitted wrongdoing.

But then again, we never apologised for nuking two cities, and the Japanese don't seem to have any major grudge against us. A lot of the anti-Japanese sentiment is probably just jealousy.

	23-08-2003 21:34									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Richard Bruns But then again, we never apologised for nuking two cities, and the Japanese don't seem to have any major grudge against us.

Uh, that's not really accurate. Just read what the Japanese have to say every anniversary of Hiroshima. There is a grudge, and it's used to lend a level of righteous indignation to the Japanese so they can ignore their nation's actions.

	23-08-2003 21:37									#25
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quote: To an Asian, with a consistent cultural heritage thousands of years old, 50 years is practically yesterday.

Not to pick on you, Richard, but this is ridiculous, if true. 60 years ago is not practically yesterday. Perhaps we are indulging East Asian self-pity to an inordinate degree. Hey, we all want to consider ourselves victims!

	23-08-2003 21:39									#26
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Why should they? We're about 3 generations removed from the fight.

People should be conscious of their collective history. Since people's opinions and mentalities are significantly dependent of their culture (their collective understanding), it is important to acknowledge the atrocities of the collective that has raised you.

As Individuals, the Japanese sure shouldn't feel bad about past atrocities they never took part in. But as a member of the Japanese culture, they should be aware their culture has brought these horrors, and that these atrocities are evil. If only, it would help preventing the Japanese doing so at some point in the future.

	23-08-2003 21:39									#27
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If your gradmother lived through it and still has scars, it's as good as yesterday.

One of my chinese flatmates at the Hogeschool Brabant was from Nanjing.

	23-08-2003 21:40									#28
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I really don't see anything for America to apologise for. They were ordered to surrender "or face serious consequences" yet they did not. After each bomb they were asked to surrender but they didn't until after the second one. It's not like we didn't give them a way out.

Also the estimated casualties were 1 million Americans and 7 million Japanese if the Allies invaded the home islands. Certainly 250,000 is a smaller number then 8 million.

	23-08-2003 21:41									#29
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It has been 70 years since Nanking, Richard. That's not practically yesterday. And even if it were, it's not a proper basis for foreign policy today!

	23-08-2003 21:41									#30
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It should also be noted that the younger generation of Koreans is far less anti-Japanese than the previous generation. As time goes on, the sentiments will dissipate, as memory of the atrocities are relegated to history. The more Koreans have contact with Japanese culture and peers, the more things will change.