23-08-2003 21:42									#31
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Not to pick on you, Richard, but this is ridiculous, if true. 60 years ago is not practically yesterday.

I don't know if 60 years ago is practically yesterday. But it sure seems the last major event is practically yesterday. Look at the Americans themselves: most of their understanding / prejudices about the rest of the world come from WW2. More specifically, the idea that France is a cowardly country comes solely from French surrendrance during WW2.

This is a mere example to show that an old event can still be the cause of very current ideas. Even for the short attention-spanned Americans

	23-08-2003 21:44									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It has been 70 years since Nanking, Richard. That's not practically yesterday. And even if it were, it's not a proper basis for foreign policy today!

I never said it was right. I just answered the question.

	23-08-2003 21:44									#33
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Of course. You know, only one child hasn't been diagnosed with ADHD in our country, and the officials have begun a huge manhunt so they can find him and for Ritalin into his body

EDIT: re Spiffor

	23-08-2003 21:46									#34
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quote: Look at the Americans themselves: most of their understanding / prejudices about the rest of the world come from WW2.

I don't believe that to be true.

quote: I never said it was right. I just answered the question.

Understood.

	23-08-2003 21:47									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor More specifically, the idea that France is a cowardly country comes solely from French surrendrance during WW2.

We have more recent examples for that prejudice than that.

	23-08-2003 21:48									#36
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DinoDoc: if you have evidence, it's not prejudice

The common prejudice against the French is horribly wrong, but quite funny

	23-08-2003 21:49									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We have more recent examples for that prejudice than that.

Yeah. We just love to appease harmless countries that happen to be our clients

	23-08-2003 21:52									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Yeah. We just love to appease harmless countries that happen to be our clients

Libya is a client of yours? You seem to be treating them quite baddly at the moment.

	23-08-2003 21:52									#39
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Skywalker:

Sorry, I didn't understand your joke. What's ADHD and Ritalin ?

	23-08-2003 21:53									#40
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It's pretty clear to me that history is no longer being written by the victors. It's being written by the victims. Which is good, since everybody can be a victim with very little cost!

	23-08-2003 21:53									#41
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Libya is a client of yours? You seem to be treating them quite baddly at the moment.

Of them ? Nah, we just thought that bombing the inhabitants of Tripoli was not the best solution to the Khadafi problem. And we could piss off the Yanks this way, and you know it's our national pasttime

	23-08-2003 21:54									#42
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I'm reminded of this because China is making a big deal of one guy dieing from mustard gas poisioning from a left over barrel from WWII. It appears that Japan is going to make compensation, but China insists on whipping Japan over this at the highest levels.

This might be better explained by current political reflections than past hostilities. From what I have seen politicians, be they democratic ones or less than democratic, tend to use past events to bolster their current positions..

	23-08-2003 21:56									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Nah, we just thought that bombing the inhabitants of Tripoli was not the best solution to the Khadafi problem.

And keeping a "repressive" sanctions regime in place is?

	23-08-2003 21:58									#44
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quote: This might be better explained by current political reflections than past hostilities. From what I have seen politicians, be they democratic ones or less than democratic, tend to use past events to bolster their current positions..

Excellent point, Sprayber.

If I were Japan, I would be tempted to tell the Chinese to sod off on this issue and then play it in the local press as standing up to Chinese aims of hegemony.

	23-08-2003 21:58									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Skywalker: Sorry, I didn't understand your joke. What's ADHD and Ritalin ?

AdHD=Attention deficite, Hyperactivity disorder (formerly ADD). There is a movement by members of the "progressive" child psychologists to identify as many children as possible to have this "disease". They perscribe ritalin (a drug), which is essentially a downer, to combat this "disease". Many, many people feel this is bullshit and that some pscholgists are just trying to make money by doopping up children.

	23-08-2003 21:59									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Skywalker: Sorry, I didn't understand your joke. What's ADHD and Ritalin ?

ADHD is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, so you can see why a lot of kids get diagnosed with it I'm ADHD, in fact, but I actually am, I wasn't falsely diagnosed. Ritalin is methylphenadate (sp?), a common prescription for ADHD.

	23-08-2003 22:03									#47
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It's pretty clear to me that history is no longer being written by the victors. It's being written by the victims. Which is good, since everybody can be a victim with very little cost!

I don't think it is that obvious DanS.

In The Temptation of Innocence (a great book, I suggest it to everybody here ), it is described how the victim has indeed raised its posture and its moral weight.
But being an objective victim is not enough to get said moral weight, and to get the attention that comes along with it. You have to be a 'good' victim, and as such you are expected to remain so.
For example, at the beginning of the Yugoslavian Civil War, the Serbs were seen with sympathy by the international community because of what the Croats had done to them during WW2. They quickly lost this sympathy because they have done as wrong.

To the point: Being a victim raise the validity of your claims when writing history. But the old methods (i.e being the strongest) haven't disappeared though. Let's just say the "victim revolution" has leveled the chances for the victim and the victor to be listened to.

	23-08-2003 22:04									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor More specifically, the idea that France is a cowardly country comes solely from French surrendrance during WW2.

Well, there was the Franco-Prussian war...

	23-08-2003 22:05									#49
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Right now though I think this is all ultimately just one drop in the sea. The amount of business co-operation between China and Japan is so huge that neither can afford to allow history to drive too large a wedge between them.

Also, sad to say (in a way) the people who do remember the unhappy past most vividly are dying out now, leaving behind a generation that doesn't know or care much about it.

Japan never apologized in diplomatic fashion. This raises issues of accountability, honor, and pride (perhaps). But take one look at the immense flow of wealth between the two nations, and I think we can say that incidents like these are being increasingly lost in a tide of trade ties.

I can understand that terrible things happened, and I would not dismiss them as trivial today, but the weight of passing years, and the breakneck pace of developments in both countries, has provided other avenues of interest. Vendettas are hard to keep up when day-to-day affairs are progressing so quickly.

	23-08-2003 22:06									#50
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc And keeping a "repressive" sanctions regime in place is?

Yes, because we suck and can't stop being *******s when our greed isn't satisfied (I'm serious. Today's France's behaviour towars Lybia sucks bigtime - we just want to suck up some money from them )

	23-08-2003 22:11									#51
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quote: Right now though I think this is all ultimately just one drop in the sea. The amount of business co-operation between China and Japan is so huge that neither can afford to allow history to drive too large a wedge between them.

Which is what I think too. The current situation has very little to do with the past situation. So why dwell on it? What do the Chinese have to gain by taking an incident that the Japanese are compliant on anyways to the highest policy levels? And having done so, why is there any political currency for China doing this?

	23-08-2003 22:14									#52
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At this point I believe Koizumi Junichiro and Hu Jintao have both something to thank to Elton John:

"Sorry seems to be the hardest word"

	23-08-2003 22:15									#53
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Which is what I think too. The current situation has very little to do with the past situation. So why dwell on it? What do the Chinese have to gain by taking an incident that the Japanese are compliant on anyways to the highest policy levels? And having done so, why is there any political currency for China doing this?

The Chinese Communist Party needs to get support from the population to keep its grip on power. There are two ways for that right now: continued economic prosperity and agressive nationalism. I'm sure the CCP has scored points in the hearts of quite a few Chinese people by doing this.

	23-08-2003 22:53									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Uh, that's not really accurate. Just read what the Japanese have to say every anniversary of Hiroshima. There is a grudge, and it's used to lend a level of righteous indignation to the Japanese so they can ignore their nation's actions.

The Germans are into this stuff lately too...

Strategic bombing complaints and such are an attempt to get away from their record of sticking Jews into ovens.

	23-08-2003 22:55									#55
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The French are irrelevant. The Germans and the Japanese matter more.

	23-08-2003 22:57									#56
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Strategic bombing complaints and such are an attempt to get away from their record of sticking Jews into ovens.

Yeah. We know the Germans will do anything not to face their role in the holocaust

	23-08-2003 22:59									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Yeah. We know the Germans will do anything not to face their role in the holocaust

It's a natural human tendancy. But overall the Germans have done a decent job of realizing how farked they were. Now we just gotta get the Belgians and French to admit their appeasement.

	23-08-2003 23:04									#58
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quote: Originally posted by TCO It's a natural human tendancy. But overall the Germans have done a decent job of realizing how farked they were.

"Decent" ? They have actively promoted their own guilt for 50 years. They have had zero self confidence as a country for 50 years. A German will be deemed suspicious by fellow Germans if he says he's proud of his country.
The Germans are only beginnign to re-discover self confidence since Schröder came to power.

If that's "decent", I wonder what you'd call a good job... Ritual mass suicides out of guilt and despair ?

	23-08-2003 23:13									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor "Decent" ? They have actively promoted their own guilt for 50 years. They have had zero self confidence as a country for 50 years. A German will be deemed suspicious by fellow Germans if he says he's proud of his country. The Germans are only beginnign to re-discover self confidence since Schröder came to power. If that's "decent", I wonder what you'd call a good job... Ritual mass suicides out of guilt and despair ?

Capital punishment for any remaining death camp supervisors and such that are found.

	23-08-2003 23:14									#60
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And I said "decent". What should they get a medal? They were farked. Admitting that is a first step. But it doesn't change how evil they were.