27-08-2003 18:36									#151
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quote: Haven't you ever heard the phrase "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"? More simply put, do you know what hypocrisy is?

of course. but because china has bloody hands, do you honestly expect all of china to forgive japan for its atrocities? korea?

you're expecting things that are impossible for most humans to do from an entire population. hell, jesus didn't even come from that part of the world.

	27-08-2003 18:39									#152
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quote: but because china has bloody hands, do you honestly expect all of china to forgive japan for its atrocities? korea?

No, I don't expect the Chinese or Koreans to forgive Japan. I know they won't. It still pisses me off, however, especially in the Chinese case. I get sick of the constant *****ing about Japanese atrocities when the Chinese have the bloodiest hands in the region.

	27-08-2003 18:41									#153
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as for what china did to korea, you seem to think most koreans have this lovey-dovey relationship with china.

pfft. most koreans think that they're better than the chinese. besides, china has never occupied all of korea; japan has. china never sought to exterminate koreans as a people. japan has. why do you think there's more hate centered on japan?

	27-08-2003 18:42									#154
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quote: No, I don't expect the Chinese or Koreans do forgive Japan. I know they won't. It still pisses me off, however, especially in the Chinese case. I get sick of the constant *****ing about Japanese atrocities when the Chinese have the bloodiest hands in the region.

they'll ***** about it because they can. you ought to know that it's far easier to cast the thrown outside the house than to throw it inside.

	27-08-2003 18:44									#155
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quote: why do you think there's more hate centered on japan?

Racism, combined with a hatred of Japan that has been passed on for centuries. It's the same reason that the Japanese hate Koreans but don't really mind the Chinese.

	27-08-2003 18:46									#156
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racism, which has only been most recently and brutally enforced by the spot of mutual displeasure between 1905 and 1945.

wait another century. if japan accepts what it did, and once korea's reunited the spot of trouble will vanish from most people's minds.

	27-08-2003 18:48									#157
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quote: if japan accepts what it did, and once korea's reunited the spot of trouble will vanish from most people's minds.

I doubt it, but I hope you're right.

	27-08-2003 18:53									#158
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My personal view is that many of the actions of the Japanese military from the early 1930's through to 1945 were unacceptable and amply justify national repentance. However if there was ever an opportunity to do something about it the initiative really had to come from the USA as occupying power in the decade after 1945. The fact that they didn't has many causes, not least the Korean War and the rise of the PRC. Now it is simply too late.

I am cynical however about Chinese motives and actions here. If a piece of WW2 ordnance turns up in the UK most people have the sense to call the police who bring in the bomb disposal experts and deal with it. Does the Chinese government make any effort to publicise the problem of abandoned Japanese weapons, particularly amongst construction workers, or is it convenient to have these incidents from time to time to give an excuse to attack the Japanese government.

As for putting stories together, I am aware that the 6 way talks over N Korean nuclear weapons, including Japan, are about to get under way and I cannot believe that the Chinese government hasn't taken that into account.

	27-08-2003 19:17									#159
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They probably have - I would rate the Chinese very highly.

	27-08-2003 20:28									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: This I seriously doubt. The Japanese routinely went on killing sprees whenever they had a chance. I'm not saying the Japanese weren't mass murderers. They certainly were. It's just really hard to top the Great Leap Forward.

You're comparing manslaughter to first degree mass murder and saying manslaughter is worse.

The majority of deaths caused during the Great Leap Forward were the result of unintended government incompetence.

The Japanese deliberately murdered, raped and enslaved people. These crimes were condoned, ordered and approved at the highest level. These crimes were a result of inherent sadism within the Japanese culture, a sadistic streak that continues to this day.

Just look at how Japanese government leaders view rape. A former Japanese cabinet member said last month: "Gang rape shows the people who do it are still vigorous, and that is OK. I think that might make them close to normal."

Japanese society and culture is severely deranged and it will continue to be so. The only hope for Japan is to admit that they were not the victims in World War Two (This view is widely held in Japan) and to admit that they commit vicious crimes.

	27-08-2003 20:32									#161
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV So what does the Chinese government do to publicise the problem and encourage people to report such finds to the authorities?

Point being?

quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Possible but unlikely. Retreating armies don't usually keep much in the way of records. What records were made were probably destroyed when the Soviets overran the Japanese in Manchuria. AFAIK nothing much was ever handed over to the post war Japanese government by the USSR.

Retreating army wouldn't lug around heavy cans of chemicals, esp. when they can serve as additional evidence of war crimes.

	27-08-2003 20:36									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten More simply put, do you know what hypocrisy is?

Where's hypocrisy?

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten What about Chinese killing Koreans? Does that bother you, since the dead are part of your ethnic group? The Chinese were the last foreign nation to invade Korea, yet all your hatred goes toward the Japanese. Why is that?

What a pathetic spin of the Korean War.

Snooze.

	27-08-2003 20:47									#163
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quote: What a pathetic spin of the Korean War.

I bet the Koreans really appreciated the extra years of war and the fifty years of totalitarian rule in the North that were the direct results of Chinese involvement in the Korean War.

The whole peninsula would've been a whole lot better off if the Chinese had just stayed the hell out of other peoples' business.

quote: Japanese society and culture is severely deranged and it will continue to be so.

Racism like this is why the grudges in East Asia will continue to simmer. Thank god I didn't grow up being indoctrined into such a backward thinking culture.

	27-08-2003 20:56									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The majority of deaths caused during the Great Leap Forward were the result of unintended government incompetence.

You don't accidentally kill 30 million people. Even if you buy the "we were just incompetent and didn't mean to kill anyone" line then the communist bastards should still be put in front of a firing squad.

I think it's kind of telling that a disproportionate number of the people who died during the great leap forward came from areas which supported the nationalists during the civil war. The communists targeted people whom they felt were insufficiently loyal to the revolution and then systematically worked and starved them to death.

	27-08-2003 20:57									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Racism like this is why the grudges in East Asia will continue to simmer. Thank god I didn't grow up being indoctrined into such a backward thinking culture.

You need to learn the definition of racism because you obviously don't understand what the word means.

You also need to learn a bit about Japanese society and culture. Once you have, you'll understand why Japanese troops behaved as they did.

	27-08-2003 21:03									#166
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quote: You also need to learn a bit about Japanese society and culture. Once you have, you'll understand why Japanese troops behaved as they did.

I wonder why those Chinese troops murdered all those democracy protestors in Tiananmen Square? Must be because Chinese culture is severely deranged and will continue to be so, eh?

	27-08-2003 21:03									#167
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The Chinese government may have killed more people than the Japanese, but they killed their OWN people, not others, so when it comes to why two states should hate each other, the crimes of one state against itself are a non-issue.( I doubt if the Japanese begun to kill themselves that the Japanese bashers would give a damn) No one cares if someone kills a lot of their own people: they care if you kill a lot of their people. I thought this was obvious.

	27-08-2003 21:09									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin You don't accidentally kill 30 million people. Even if you buy the "we where just incompetent and didn't mean to kill anyone" line then the communist bastards should still be put in front of a firing squad. I think it's kind of telling that a disproportionate number of the people who died during the great leap forward came from areas which supported the nationalists during the civil war. The communists targeted people whom they felt were insufficiently loyal to the revolution and then systematically worked and starved them to death.

Sources?

As far as I know, it is generally accepted that the misguided policies of the Great Leap Forward destroyed China's ability to grow food. This led to famine throughout the country and an estimated 30 million deaths (the exact number is not known).

I have never read anything that says the Communist government systematically starved areas that were not loyal. If you have any sources, I'd be interested in seeing them.

	27-08-2003 21:10									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten It still pisses me off, however, especially in the Chinese case. I get sick of the constant *****ing about Japanese atrocities when the Chinese have the bloodiest hands in the region.

Your worldview is a terribly oversimplified one.

As UR and Tingkai have attempted to point out, you are comparing what was largely a case criminal negligence with first-degree murder. I know that thinking about this will require you to set aside your biases for a moment, I hope that's not asking too much.

Most of the deaths during the Great Leap Forward were due to monumentally moronic agricultural and development policies coupled with a political structure that lead (and allowed) low-level Party leaders to do or claim just about anything (no matter the cost) in an attempt to appease Mao ... and keep their jobs.

I hold Mao and the Party entirely responsible for a man-made disaster of obscene proportions, but I have seen no evidence that Mao set out to intentionally exterminate millions of peasants.

I think you can make a better case for the casualties of the Cultural Revolution, but even here I think it would be difficult to claim that Mao unleashed that social hurricaine with murderous intent. It was more of a bid to regain his power by outflanking the Party apparatus. He must have known that the forces he was unleashing would be dangerous, but I think he thought he could control them better. I do not believe he intended to plunge the nation into the level of anarchy which resulted, although he must bear reponsibility for his actions. Again, this is very different from deliberate murder, which is what the Japanese were guilty of ... on a very large scale indeed.

	27-08-2003 21:12									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: You also need to learn a bit about Japanese society and culture. Once you have, you'll understand why Japanese troops behaved as they did. I wonder why those Chinese troops murdered all those democracy protestors in Tiananmen Square? Must be because Chinese culture is severely deranged and will continue to be so, eh?

Again, you're comparing an isolated two-day event to massive reign of terror that last more than 10 years.

Next you'll be saying the Americans are to blame for the Japanese war crimes.

	27-08-2003 21:17									#171
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quote: As UR and Tingkai have attempted to point out, you are comparing what was largely a case criminal negligence with first-degree murder.

What about Tiananmen? What about Tibet? What about all the horrible things that happened in the Chinese Civil War? Jesus, you guys complain about the Japanese whitewashing their history and then you go and do the same thing.

God knows the Japanese have their problems. They still need to deal more completely with their past. However, Japan is far from being the most jacked up country in East Asia. I've never seen Tojo on a T-shirt, but Mao is a cultural icon over in China. The bastard killed millions of his own people and you all treat him like a hero. Makes you wonder who the deranged country really is, doesn't it?

quote: I know that thinking about this will require you to set aside your biases for a moment, I hope that's not asking too much.

My biases?

I don't have any bias when it comes to East Asia. I think that all the countries involved in this grudge match are ****ing nuts. Maybe you guys will grow up a bit after WWIII is over.

	27-08-2003 21:22									#172
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quote: Racism like this is why the grudges in East Asia will continue to simmer. Thank god I didn't grow up being indoctrined into such a backward thinking culture.

actually, all the recent troubles in the area are because of western influence: communism, capitalism, and imperialism.
so you can stow your western arrogance right there.

as for growing up, we'll grow up when the west learns that it's not god's greatest gift to all mankind.

	27-08-2003 21:23									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I think it's kind of telling that a disproportionate number of the people who died during the great leap forward came from areas which supported the nationalists during the civil war. The communists targeted people whom they felt were insufficiently loyal to the revolution and then systematically worked and starved them to death.

You need to read Jasper Becker's "Hungry Ghosts" for a more accurate acount of the Great Leap Forward. It's very well documented - he was the first Chinese-speaking westerner to research the Great Leap from inside China. In a highly critical accounting, he places the blame squarely on the Party and its policies.

You claims do not hold up well with the evidence he presents. The big cities of the east and south were the Nationalists' strongholds. These were not the areas hit hardest by the famine. Rural areas took the worst of it, especially impoverished agriculutral Anhui province.

	27-08-2003 21:27									#174
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quote: actually, all the recent troubles in the area are because of western influence: communism, capitalism, and imperialism.

Yeah, capitalism has really hurt Japan and South Korea, hasn't it? China is right now experiencing the horrors of a market economy.

Come on, Q Cubed, you're smarter than that. Don't fall for the stupid, ultranationalist bullshit that all the Chinese folks on the board seem to have bought hook, line, and sinker. You can still love your homeland and people while admitting that some things are wrong with them.

	27-08-2003 21:27									#175
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quote: Again, you're comparing an isolated two-day event to massive reign of terror that last more than 10 years.

10 years? pfft.

try 35.

	27-08-2003 21:29									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Sources? As far as I know, it is generally accepted that the misguided policies of the Great Leap Forward destroyed China's ability to grow food. This led to famine throughout the country and an estimated 30 million deaths (the exact number is not known). I have never read anything that says the Communist government systematically starved areas that were not loyal. If you have any sources, I'd be interested in seeing them.

There are tons of books on the Great Leap Forward. Yes, the communists took farmers off the farmers and put them to work in hastely built factories and most of the factories produced junk of such low quality that it was useless. The classic example was pig iron production where the iron was of such poor quality that that it had to be remanufactured 2,3, even 4 times before it was pure enough to be used for anything.

The thing is that farm collectivisation and a drastic drop in farm labor meant that food production headed south in a big way. The communists further made things worse by putting farmers at starvation rations so that the cities could be feed (thus keeping the cities loyal to the party). That meant the only people who grew the food died first. Once food was in short supply the government selectively rationed food so that loyal communists eat first while areas with past histories of nationalist ties got little or nothing.

A more ethical way would have been to have a uniform ration method rather then a politically motivated one. Further most people in "reeducation camps" were nationalists or children of nationalists and they were kept in conditions which would have made the commander of a Soviet gulog cringe.

	27-08-2003 21:32									#177
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quote: What about Tibet? What about all the horrible things that happened in the Chinese Civil War? Jesus, you guys complain about the Japanese whitewashing their history and then you go and do the same thing.

Whitewashing? We haven't even been talking about those topics! You brought them up, just now!

quote: I've never seen Tojo on a T-shirt, but Mao is a cultural icon over in China. The bastard killed millions of his own people and you all treat him like a hero. Makes you wonder who the deranged country really is, doesn't it?

Now you are simply betraying your ignorance of Chinese history. My advice: you really need to read up some before engaging in this kind of discussion, at least if you want to be taken seriously.

quote: My biases?

Just read over your last five posts or so, and you'll see what we are talking about, smart guy.

On second thought, you probably still won't.

	27-08-2003 21:33									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: As UR and Tingkai have attempted to point out, you are comparing what was largely a case criminal negligence with first-degree murder. What about Tianamen? What about Tibet? What about all the horrible things that happened in the Chinese Civil War

What about them? Why should Korea be mad at China for that? Why should the Philippines be mad at China for that? Why should Indnesia be mad at China for that? Why should anyone but the Chinese be mad at the Chinese government?

Tianamen is nothing compared to Nanking.

Tibet is nothing compared to the occupation of Korea.

The Japanese invasion killed more people than the Civil War (and by the way, it was Chiang Kai-Shek and the KMT who started the civil war when they massacred the Communists in 1927).

	27-08-2003 21:33									#179
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quote: Yeah, capitalism has really hurt Japan and South Korea, hasn't it? China is right now experiencing the horrors of a market economy.

it's not a question of whether it's hurting them now as what it did in the past. capitalism has helped exacerbate the tense situation in the korean peninsula. it spurred and drove japan to engage in imperialism which devastated korea and led to its occupation and eventual division.
now, sure, japan and korea are doing well. so's china. that doesn't excuse the troubles it's helped cause in the past.

quote: Come on, Q Cubed, you're smarter than that. Don't fall for the stupid, ultranationalist bullshit that all the Chinese folks on the board seem to have bought hook line and sinker. You can still love your homeland and people while admitting that some things are wrong with them.

oh, of course. blame for korea's troubles can go around everywhere, but when it gets down to it, some of the biggest sources are the western ideals of imperialism, and communism. those two alone are responsible for a huge bulk of korea's problems in the 21st century. coupled with hard-headed and often knuckle-headed koreans, that makes for a rather nasty combination, don't you think?

	27-08-2003 21:37									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: actually, all the recent troubles in the area are because of western influence: communism, capitalism, and imperialism. Yeah, capitalism has really hurt [snip] South Korea, hasn't it?

Up until the mid 1970s, the RoK had a worse economy than the DPRK. Up until the 1990s, the RoK was still a vicious dictatorship, and the old guard still has quite a bit of power. And remember, Imperial Japan was capitalist, and they did what they did to Korea in the name of capitalist development. This history of capitalism in Korea has not been very good until very recently.