 |
| |
|
|
UnOrthOdOx
|
 |
Hello....
Jun 2002
time: 22:30
|
|
quote:
UnO,
We didn't choose our course of action because we though GoW isn't good enough to counterbalance ND (though the geography certainly gives ND an advantage w/regard to using captured Spanish land, unless GoW manages to get a leader for a FP rush down south, and even then it would be tough to defend). No, even if GoW & ND balanced out well, a 2-civ Bob means 2 civs larger & more powerful than GS. Add in Lego, which is also much larger than us, and we've got serious problems. Our decision was based on that - not on any imagined incompetance on GoW's part.
As for this thread... whatever. Bring it. The only personal grudge which saddens me is yours, UnO. But there doesn't appear to be much I can do about it.
Damnit, I had managed to avoid this forum for most of the day... only succumbing in the late afternoon. So close to staying out of it...
-Arrian |
Arrian,
For that matter GS in general,
I know that it is my personal vendetta that is causing at least some of you pain.
While I am absolutely sure that your reasoning was only to improve your own nation, that is not what the perception is.
I must appologize for the search feature is not working at present, but here in public there have been several posts from GS members that GoW sought the help of GS to expand the borders of ND. They are typically stated in a nature to imply that either that ND called GoW's shots, or that GoW is just plain stupid.
I made no illusions that I was a bit hurt over the deal with the gifting of cities. Not for the fact, no. For the nature in which the deal I was very personally involved in with GS was cancelled. I am over that, and have learned that it was at least partly due to a fact that I was relatively inactive for a few days. Days where GS made up their mind. I still feel that GS missed out on hearing ALL of their options before committing to a course of action. I also feel that GS had no intention of any kind of compromise.
Now GS comes with the notion of an honorable war to restore RP to glory. I make no presumptions that this does not chaffe me as well. I don't care for those who roleplay righteous and holy, typically. I prefer evil characters in general, just who I am.
Do I want GS removed? No. Errr, rather, not yet. I want them removed eventually in order to win, yes. For now, I want them off of Bob and back at the negotiating table. If GS is willing to talk, and truly willing to compromise, I would even be willing to return as ambassador despite my RL time situation at present (spook alley) and continue where I had left off.
We are all civvers in the end, after all. GS may win a war with ND/GoW, sure. I doubt that would be for some time yet, though, and at what cost would it come? Conversly, ND/GoW could kick GS off the island, sure. I doubt THAT would happen for some time yet, though, and at what cost would that come, though?
Surely there is something somewhere that we civvers can agree to a mutual benefit.
As far as this thread and GS restoring RP. Sure, makes perfect sense for GS. Make a team start from scratch given a hollow, war torn land. Seems to be their MO for now.
edit:
I have nothing but respect for the INDIVIDUAL members of GS. It is out of this respect that I offer to return as ambassador if they wish. This will be an outstanding offer for if and/or when they wish to set up negotiations with GoW once again.
I believe that GS knows how much this is a sacrifice on my part, and to my other commitments in RL. Perhaps this will also instill in them that I truly have no hard feelings and am just playing as I normally would in a similar situation with anyone.
edit2: I can see where this attitude is confusing. Just know that I am very much a Gemini, so when it seems I have split personalities, it's because I largely do.
Last edited by UnOrthOdOx on 26-08-2003 at 04:02
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
notyoueither
|
 |
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:30
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
While I am absolutely sure that your reasoning was only to improve your own nation... |
To be completely honest, sir, you are wrong (to a greater or lesser extent). To be correct, you are not entirely on the right track.
There was more than one expression in our private forum that joining in a gang bang of a helpless civ did not attract us, as people and players.
Some of us realised how much was invested by many people, and some of us realised what would be the likely outcome in personal terms for that rape for the victims.
Some of us welcomed the possibilities of aiding Spain far more than we welcomed the possibilities of carving her up, even though the uncertain path that we walk now does little to assure us of final victory.
Now, to be entirely honest... were we not greeted with Xenophobia disguising a greed to win now by ND, and yes GoW, through total domination of Spain, with us to enjoy nary a scrap in return for our assistance in killing her... the voices of saying 'no, joining in the kill like that is not something I am content with' would most likely have been overwhelmed by a desire to win.
However, there are/were 7 teams. Only one can 'win' the game. All the rest may play. It is in the playing that all the rest of the vanquished 6 will win. The destination is not the goal. The journey is. Let us take care not to **** on the journeys of the rest of our fellow travellers.
That means that the level of trash has gone way too far. GS has felt it. Vox has felt it (I think). Now RP feels it. Do you wsh for your team to feel it when things do not go so well?
I am reminded of the Golden Rule, and how it lays out the basis of a civil society. And truely, this forum and this game could use a good dose of civility.
Last edited by notyoueither on 26-08-2003 at 12:21
|
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
 |
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:30
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Oh, and vondrack, you are mistaken too. People do things for the strangest reasons. 'Final victory' in a 'game' on a forum where many of us have spent a great deal of time, is not the be all and end all of the experience. |
Oh, definitely... I mean, yes, people do things for the strangest reasons. But if GS' theme was efficiency (as I have read earlier in this thread), then helping the RPers because of "feeling for them" would be kinda "betraying your theme", wouldn't it? 
Bur seriously - I trust your words. Not only because you are nye  , but because the same happened when Lego discussed whether to help the losing Voxes or not. There were "logical" reasons to do so - reasons driven by our desire to win. But then... there was also the feeling of "being able to help someone badly in need". And even if the majority of posts in our forum focused on the potential benefits, I suspect for many, the "helping" part was just as important - more important than one would judge from the ratio of "rational" to "emotional" posts. Since that's where one stops crunching numbers, forgets the "efficiency", and finally plays a game, EXPERIENCING A STORY (on a personal note: I know I did feel something warm inside seeing all those new Voxian settlements pop up on the inhospitable Legos Minor ).
Perhaps the problem is (and it applies more when the GS is the focus, particularly because of its "efficiency theme") that people are naturally reluctant to believe that the "inefficient, yet noble" reasons are the ones making you do this or that... if one states ONLY those, it sounds false. Ironically, if GS stated only the "cold logic" reasons, however incomplete such reasoning could be in reality, nobody would argue, I think. I believe that the best would be to state BOTH, as that's how things always really are, at least as far as I can tell...
quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Now, to be entirely honest... were we not greeted with Xenophobia disguising a greed to win now by ND, and yes GoW, through total domination of Spain, with us to enjoy nary a scrap in return for our assistance in killing her... the voices of saying 'no, joining in the kill like that is not something I am content with' would most likely have been overwhelmed by a desire to win. |
 for your honesty.
But... beware, you are doing pretty much the same mistake here I did by overstressing the "efficient, cold-blooded" reasons GS might have had to come to the RPers' aid. "Xenophobia disguising a greed to win now by ND, and yes GoW" is not really fair. We would have to start talking about the "greed" of RPers that played a major role here. We would have to find out if there is any agreement between ND and GoW regarding the post-war division of Bob between them... etc.
Even if we forget their "mercenary theme", GoW, just like you, would have their chances of winning the game close to zero if sticking to peaceful methods - just look at how their empire looks like on the map. So, joining a war promising to net them an improvement of their overall chances is hardly to be considered and labeled as "greed". It is a simple wish to win or stay in the race - the fact that the RPers are hardly to be viewed as an easy partner (this I have to admit even from the Lego point of view... I'd have to personally agree with those describing the RP diplomacy as "aggresive") as opposed to proclaimed ease which ND and GoW get along with each other, only made the decision easier.
The same goes for ND - teaming up with RPers was apparently not an option, so the only real choice was to ally with GoW... preventing being squeezed from North & South, assuring that the RPers, starting with the best and claiming most of Bob land, would not become the dominant Bob power.
"Xenophobia disguising a greed" is too strong of an expression, unless the natural desire to win is to be labelled as greed. Let's not fuel the flames anymore...
Everybody wants to win and hardly anybody wants to win at all costs. There are always reasons driven by the desire to win or do well (kinda "ingame") and there are always reasons driven by emotions (kinda "outgame"). I don't think we'll ever be able to supress any of them, as they are an inherent part of the game (and the "social interaction" mentioned by Velocyrix) as a whole.
So let's keep that in our minds all the time. When making (roleplaying) posts about how "holy" our war is and how "evil" our enemies are and how much they "deserve" to be humiliated - let's add some sort of a fineprint disclaimer saying something like Arrian said in his post: "Hey, guys, we are not stupid - we know we'd be toast if we let you carry your plan out... so we've come up with this "save the RPers theme" which is part true, part just a mockery to make us doing the inevitable look good. "
quote:
Originally posted by Shiber
Let us not forget the wrongs that were done to Trip, when several members of GoW set out to prevent him from achieving the position of Minister of War for the Apolyton ISDG team following the Luxian war.
It can be argued that those people objected to Trip's appointment over professional reasons, but the apparent desire to stop Trip from gaining any formal status within the ISDG team, and utterances such as "We must not let Trip touch ANYTHING!" left me with no doubt that this was another incident where animosity from the PTWDG was carried on elsewhere. |
Ummm... are you sure it was GoW members? ONLY them? As far as I know that's not really true - there were others feeling strongly about letting someone they believed had done major diplomatic mistakes in PtWDG gain real power (read: become a Consul) in ISDG. And personally, I would agree that their concerns were at least partially justified - even if Trip later proved he had learnt his lesson from PtWDG and turned out to be a great asset to the ISDG team.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
WhiteBandit
|
 |
Southern California
Jul 2002
time: 21:30
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Theseus
My apologies to anyone who was mad about the make-up of GS... after nye got it started, I sorta went on a recruiting warpath.
Headhunting, as it were. 
Oh, and by the way, did I mention I want to win?
No hard feelings here. Play on! |
(bold emphasis mine)
Here here!!
:claps:
Seriously, why are we arguing over this? We're not going to convince each other of our views ever. Everyone is pretty set in stone about how they feel. I mean let's just erase all our posts from now on and write "+1".
In any case, GoW and ND have still left two cities standing. We don't need your pity you bastards, bring it on!
And on that note, I would like to end this post with the following:
Has anyone taken into account Lego sitting over there looking innocent?
While we're all over here trying to contemplate world peace, Lego is in the background stealing our stuff and giving us the finger! In fact, I believe this whole thing was setup by Lego for world domination!
Therefore I offer the following proposition:
Let us all put our differences behind us and unite against a common enemy: Lego! 
And since imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, RP will offer you all a deal, modeled after our GoW overlords: Once Lego is carved up, you can all go to hell and not touch one bit of that continent! Come on! It's fair! You do our fighting and we get the land.
[Note that I am only joking! Mostly... :P]
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Sir Ralph
|
 |
Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:30
|
|
We never denied the true reason of our intervention. Our admitted reason was always, that we cannot accept a continent of that size divided by just 2 nations. It doesn't matter, if ND or GoW is the big dog or if both counterweight each other, either constellation is unacceptable. We admitted this, and in return we get a huge pile of nonsense like this:
quote:
As far as myself, yes I have hard feelings towards GS now. No, I don't think they betrayed us. I think they insulted us in the way they chose to assist RP and in some reasons given in private for doing so. I feel they in essence told us "We don't want to expand ND, and we don't trust you to play Civ well enough to act as a balance for ND, therefore we will stop it."
Again personal opinion, and perhaps I am wrong, but I feel that GS has looked down thier nose and decided GoW doesn't play well enough, that ND is the only real nation on Bob, and that GS wants to prevent ND becomming powerfull with us as a Vassal. I am a bit insulted by this, and could very well be wrong, but have been told, or had implied, such from more than one source many times. So yes, GS is now a target of mine. |
As for the ISDG, I think I left the team at the right time. At this time I already could see, that the team spirit is pretty bad. I'm not surprised to hear, that this didn't get much better. I never regret this step, even though I'm inactive now in my new team and thus, practically out of the game.
I have to admit, that after the last pile of flames and insults I have serious personal issues with many of the active GoW members. This is not limited to this game anymore and not at all "only skin deep". I'm at a point, where I won't join any new game, be it a demogame or only a PBEM, with these people. And I deleted MZO from my links list. I tried to calm things down, but in return I got basically (with other words), that it can't be helped, the flames won't stop and if I don't like it, I can bugger off. Strangely, this feeling is limited to GoW, since ND does not participate in the flame wars and limits its contribution to calm and mostly insightful comments.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:30
|
|
Shiber, just to clarify my note on the PtWDG/ISDG - yes, I, too, very well know that Trip did not become a Consul because of what happened to Lux in PtWDG (and I have already mentioned that I personally thought the issues some had with him were, at least at that time, quite understandable, if not even justified... he had to prove he had learnt his lesson - which he has done and keeps doing, IMHO).
I commented on your post because I knew that even some members of RP did not want Trip to gain power (to make decisions) in ISDG - although I felt that their issue was mostly not personal, but based on sort of a "professional" aspect. They considered Trip's strategy and diplomacy in PtWDG simply plain wrong and were trying to prevent him from doing the same mistake in ISDG, where stakes were higher. It was not GoW only (to be honest, I heard from the members of the RP, not GoW... but that's perhaps because they happened to be the folks I was talking to often at that time).
And, Sir Ralph - I am happy to say that the ISDG team is now an oasis of cooperation and peace, at least from what I can see in the forum. I am no longer a Consul in there (resigned months ago), so I do not come to the chatroom all that often (quite seldom, actually) but I still follow the forum very closely, because I keep doing the turn reports on regular basis. We did have several periods of very heated discussions, but I believe the waters are now pretty calm and quite enjoyable. Everybody works towards the common goal.
I wish this forum would be as productive, on-topic, and flame-free as the ISDG forum is now...
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Panzer32
|
 |
Queens University, Kingston, Ontario
Oct 2002
time: 00:30
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I have to admit, that after the last pile of flames and insults I have serious personal issues with many of the active GoW members. This is not limited to this game anymore and not at all "only skin deep". I'm at a point, where I won't join any new game, be it a demogame or only a PBEM, with these people. And I deleted MZO from my links list. |
I am sorrry you feel this way
quote:
I tried to calm things down, but in return I got basically (with other words), that it can't be helped, the flames won't stop and if I don't like it, I can bugger off. |
I am afraid I might have been one of the people who was saying this. I based this on a philosophy that in a game such as this that involves backstabbing etc. does cause conflict such as we've seen on the forum. I do believe, however, that this conflict can be toned down (as it has done in the past) after certain posts are made. I would like to be one of them but I'm really not that good at wording posts (I mean even this one took 20 minutes to write!)
quote:
Strangely, this feeling is limited to GoW, since ND does not participate in the flame wars and limits its contribution to calm and mostly insightful comments. |
I wouldn't say this is completely strange, as ND is more detached from the Apolyton side of this game. I imagine not every one of their members checks here regularly, and some might not speak English as well as others (just a hypothesis). I also notice that it seems as ND's leader is the one who posts, maybe he has more control over his emotions or something... but again I don't know the full extent of the situation.
Sir Ralph, or anyone else for that matter, if you want, you can always bring up anything I've said in a post via PM. If you believe it is offensive to a person, then please feel free to approach me about it. I never want this game to get to a personal level and it saddens me that I might have put it there.
I also feel that this something to do with the make up of GoW. If you put a team together of warmongers, I am sure that, on a whole, they would tend to be slightly more hot-headed than a team of builders.
Just to wrap up, again, I am sorry that you feel this way and are discontinuing all democracy games. If you would like one that is essentially flame free, the SPDG is quite good at bringing people together. Unfortunatly it is suffering from a lack of interest right now.
From a concerned member of GoW,
Panzer32
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Hot_Enamel
|
 |
Melbourne, Australia
Aug 2002
time: 14:30
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Shiber
I only brought the matter up as an anectode, to point out that animosity is being carried off from the PTWDG, despite several denials that I've heard in the last few days (some are simply unaware of certain events or things that took place in private, others were directly involved in such events and still deny). I'm not trying to make a case against GoW either, although to be honest (and I'm taking a big risk here just to voice my personal opinion; please don't start a flame war over this) it is my personal opinion that the warmongers team has attracted more hot-heads than any other team.
|
I think the GoW "hotheads" may post a lot more in the forums, but all GoW in-game action has been calculated responses to other team actions. And only done where there is an advantage for us to do it.
Ask the most level-headed members in our Team if you wish.
Some RP members refuse to believe that their earlier in-game actions are the sole cause the the current war against them. (GoW perspective) I dont really care if they belive it or not, but I will respond to any post that says that GoW or ND are the aggressors in this war. Our actions are in response to early RP diplomatic aggresiveness (They call it negotiating from the postion of power) that made RP too difficult to ally with.
Some GS members refuse to believe that there was no vendetta against them from the other teams. I will acknowledge that GS was identified to have a powerful member base, but the GoW has never acted in-game against GS in any way except when it was advantagous for us to do so. Vox "invaded" Bob, and was driven off. GS now "invade" Bob and will also be driven off. If Lego does the same, they will also meet the same fate.
Again, I will probably respond with denial the next time a GS member brings it up.
It's as simple as that. GoW plans on winning the game. Every team has their individual hotheads and some rants that have become personal. But it is my belief that 99% of the posts are done with humor as the intent.
Those posts which border on being personal attacks, I ignore. Certainly Shiber and many others ignore me. In fact, it seems Shiber only responds if I insert a 
|
|
| |
|
|
|
GhengisFarb
|
 |
I want my HAMBURGERS!!
May 2002
time: 23:30
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I have to admit, that after the last pile of flames and insults I have serious personal issues with many of the active GoW members. This is not limited to this game anymore and not at all "only skin deep". I'm at a point, where I won't join any new game, be it a demogame or only a PBEM, with these people. And I deleted MZO from my links list. I tried to calm things down, but in return I got basically (with other words), that it can't be helped, the flames won't stop and if I don't like it, I can bugger off. Strangely, this feeling is limited to GoW, since ND does not participate in the flame wars and limits its contribution to calm and mostly insightful comments. |
This is exactly why I have gone back twice and deleted my posts. Someone reports my post to a Mod (which doesn't bother me THAT much) but then also informs me I have emotionally wounded them (which does bother me).
So, to Sir Ralph and everyone else I apologize to everyone I have emotionally wounded and driven from the game of Civilization and all its descendants. That was never my intention.
I guess this means I have to be careful about my comments towards GS to.  At the rate I'm running through teams we're going to have to declare war on Lego soon so I have someone else to make fun of.
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:30.
Apolyton Time is 00:30. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
26-08-2003 03:29
Hopefully my performane is OTT enough.
|