27-08-2003 16:11									#151
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb I didn't say you were MENTALLY damaged, I said emotionally damaged.............

My bad, replace mentally with emotionally in my statement. Not that it matters much, since both are not the case.

	27-08-2003 17:36									#152
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* Theseus applauds H_E in general.

	27-08-2003 17:44									#153
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Even though I was not around at the time; I see no problem wit this Treaty/Deal. If RP didn't want you snooping around their terr, that's their business. If you didn't want to accept the terms as they were presented, then you should have declined or offered to compromise/renegotiate. Moaning about it now does little good; perhaps you should have moaned when the deal was presented?

There's the whole problem right there. RP saw it as THEIR territory.

RP claimed all of southern Bob. No exploration, no settling, nothing. No one allowed south of Sargosa. It was unclaimed territory, we were scouting, that is all, but RP, despite it being UNCLAIMED, arbitrarily claimed it as their own without anything aproaching a boarder agreement with us.

This could have been overlooked and forgotten, yes, but several members of RP then went out onto OTHER FORUMS and began to brag about how well they were able to manipulate GoW. How well they were able to dupe and deceive us. THAT is when it became a problem that stayed in the back of GoW's mind.

	27-08-2003 18:10									#154
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The Treaty both sides agree to was that our Warrior was to go north of their city Madrid.

After that was agreed to and WE FULFILLED our end of the bargain by getting there, Togas decided he didn't want to fulfill his end of the bargain and said that they then wouldn't do their part for another six turns. Saragossa was never part of the agreed to treaty it was just an excuse Roleplay used to drive the knife in a little deeper and wiggle it around some.

Historical side note. The Saragossa thing right here, that is the point at which ND and GoW made a pact to wipe Lux and Roleplay off the continent. Right there, that was the straw that infuriated both teams to the point that they realized Roleplay wasn't a rational team and could never be a fair trading partner. From that point on both teams began planning the invasion and building the invasion troops.

It was the nonfulfillment of an agreed to treaty with GoW and the founding of a city smack in the middle of ND's lands. This current conflict is the War of Saragossa.

	27-08-2003 18:35									#155
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There, thats better. Real conversation/debate about the reasons for the war

Not flames.

	27-08-2003 18:42									#156
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Madrid, Saragosa, whatever, SOME RP city or another.

Personally I was more upset over the taking it over to other forums.

	27-08-2003 18:50									#157
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb This current conflict is the War of Saragossa.

It just took us awhile to get our troops built up.

Actually, I think the timing had to do with many factors:
1) The ND/GoW Alliance had just gotten Chivalry which allowed both of us to build our UUs and thus trigger our GAs to continue the war. (The second wave is REALLY scary looking. But, then Roleplay and GS will see that in REAL soon. He He, our first inter-land mass war. Voxia for the Voxians!)

2) GS had just consolidated their whole land mass meaning that once they cultivated it they would be able to go toe to toe with any two civs in the game outside of Lego. Splitting Bob between ND and GoW would restore the balance of power between GS/ND/GoW.

3) GS had just finished the war with Vox so we had hoped they wouldn't want another one right now. We reasoned they would want to consolidate and build infrastructure while Big Bob's civs tore each other apart.


As it turned out GS stuck their nose in it, kept pushing GoW to see how far they could twist the treaty before we defended ourselves and the rest is history.

	27-08-2003 21:13									#158
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quote: GS had just consolidated their whole land mass meaning that once they cultivated it they would be able to go toe to toe with any two civs in the game outside of Lego. Splitting Bob between ND and GoW would restore the balance of power between GS/ND/GoW

Anyone who has access to our map (everyone, at this point, IIRC) knows this is a joke.

-Arrian

	27-08-2003 22:01									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Anyone who has access to our map (everyone, at this point, IIRC) knows this is a joke.

I don't have access to your map. Want to send it to me so I can be in this so-called yet highly suspect "joke?"

	27-08-2003 22:06									#160
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I was under the impression that our map had been traded around to the other teams. Not so?

And it is a joke. Bob is *HUGE* compared to Stormia, and has better terrain.

Somebody (Nathan?) tried to figure out the best we could do if we just turtled on Stormia, and Bob went to war, resulting in 2 Bobian civs. I think the result was we could get up to 70% of the commerce (due to lots of coastal tiles) and about 50% of the production... of EITHER Bobian civ.

In other words, we wouldn't have much of a shot at winning. We could most likely avoid being conquered, but that isn't winning. That's not losing.

-Arrian

	27-08-2003 22:16									#161
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Those numbers were with an ideally placed palace / FP... and how are we going to place those without (a) leader(s)?

DeepO

	27-08-2003 22:17									#162
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Hence the "best we could do" part of my post. That was the *optimal* GS situation, if we turtled.

In other words, we would have been screwed.

-Arrian

	27-08-2003 22:28									#163
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Those numbers were with an ideally placed palace / FP... and how are we going to place those without (a) leader(s)? DeepO

I thought you got a Leader for killing MadKing Donegeal?

Either put up or shut up. Its all just BS till I see a map.

	27-08-2003 22:32									#164
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GF, check your forum. GoW has received a map after the Voxian war. And we got a leader for killing some Voxian mortal, yes, but how do you think Sun Tsu got rushed in 1 turn? We didn't had former Voxia yet, or the choice would have been obvious.

DeepO

	27-08-2003 22:34									#165
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Ghengis, look at the save please.

	27-08-2003 22:35									#166
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DeepO, you forgot that Ghengis has been sacked as GoW leader and thus, no access to the map right now.

	27-08-2003 23:00									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 Ghengis, look at the save please.

Shut up, I was trying to get one of them to email me a map so I could see their troop positions...........

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph DeepO, you forgot that Ghengis has been sacked as GoW leader and thus, no access to the map right now.

You keep bringing up bad memories like this and I'll start doing PHYSICAL damage on top of the emotional damage I gave you and the apparent mental damage you were born with.

-Just kidding.

	28-08-2003 04:34									#168
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Those numbers were with an ideally placed palace / FP... and how are we going to place those without (a) leader(s)? DeepO

I think that was the carrot (albeit a small carrot) that we offered GS, to join the war against RP.

You get to pound on an civilisation with little risk to your own units, for the chance of generating a leader.

I'm not saying it was a fair deal, but the counter offer of giving GS territory on Bob was just too expensive.

	28-08-2003 10:51									#169
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb You keep bringing up bad memories like this and I'll start doing PHYSICAL damage on top of the emotional damage I gave you and the apparent mental damage you were born with.

Thanks, I already knew your state of mind before and there was no need to give an explicit demonstration like this. Actually, I was trying to help you out. Your troll was so poor and such obviously based on the lack of information what's going on in your own team, that I felt pity for you and tried to find an explanation.

	28-08-2003 12:53									#170
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GF, you complain about RP's diplomacy being "aggressive", and I agree to some extent that RP's claiming of the entire south by words alone did deserve reaction from GoW and ND. I can also understand your anger; I too was upset when RP'ers brought up issues from the PTWDG in other forums and dabbled in their own complacency, even though it did not concern me directly.
However, to be honest, it was much more difficult to do diplomacy with GoW than RP from my point of view. To be very honest, it was hell working with GoW for most of the time, and that was 90% your fault, Ghengis.
Ghengis, here are my own two cents, for what they're worth: keep your smartass comments and childish behavior to the public forum, where they're entertaining and appreciated.

Last edited by Shiber on 28-08-2003 at 13:08

	28-08-2003 13:42									#171
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[ouch] Justified, but [ouch]

	28-08-2003 15:38									#172
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I think that the dreaded Poly downtimes have one very positive effect... Everybody seems to calm down and the discussion in the public forum actually becomes worth reading. Wow!

Several pretty good posts regarding ingame events/history and few more that gave me a good laugh!

Let's keep it this way!

	28-08-2003 16:14									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel I think that was the carrot (albeit a small carrot) that we offered GS, to join the war against RP. You get to pound on an civilisation with little risk to your own units, for the chance of generating a leader. I'm not saying it was a fair deal, but the counter offer of giving GS territory on Bob was just too expensive.

So if you knew it wasn't a fair deal, why all the fuzz when we didn't accept it?

And... little risk in gangraping RP for sure, but also no gains for us either. We needed 3 teams on Bob, either ND-GoW-us or ND-GoW-RP. First option wasn't possible, so we only had one way out... it still surprises me that you don't realize you forced the issue, noble goals and personal preferences aside.

BTW, I don't mind this war, it makes the game a lot more insteresting, and so should you feel about it. What glory is there in rollercoasting over a civ?

DeepO

	28-08-2003 18:43									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Ghengis, here are my own two cents, for what they're worth: keep your smartass comments and childish behavior to the public forum, where they're entertaining and appreciated.

Whoah! Shiber wake up and smell reality! THIS IS THE PUBLIC FORUM!
I don't know when you got so egotistical that you claimed the Public Forum as the GS Forum but other teams are still posting here.

quote: Originally posted by Shiber However, to be honest, it was much more difficult to do diplomacy with GoW than RP from my point of view. To be very honest, it was hell working with GoW for most of the time, and that was 90% your fault, Ghengis.

I gave an actual explanation of the views expressed by the teams at that time. I didn't say they were right or wrong, and to be honest we were all VERY emotional at that point. I don't know what I did to make dealing with GS more difficult as to my knowledge I never dealt with GS. If you don't want to see synopsis of the internal reasonings of other teams and what affected them to make their decisions I will stop. I just thought someone might find it interesting to see how various teams reacted to things.

ND and Lego were always very easy to negotiate with. Lux was very easy also. Roleplay was simply always wanting to have the upperhand and rarely wanted fair deals, more so after the Saragossa Incident.

Vox and GS were virtually impossible to deal with. Vox got much better later but GS didn't improve much. Even the simplist of deals took weeks to negotiate with GS. Admittingly, this jaded my attitude to GS. There were several times we had negotiated multi team trade deals with ND, Lego, Lux, and Roleplay only to have to hold up everything while Vox and GS took days to respond.

Eventually this led to not even attempting to bring GS into deals. It wasn't worth the time and effort of the other teams putting their games on hold to deal with them.

	28-08-2003 18:58									#175
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Whoah! Shiber wake up and smell reality! THIS IS THE PUBLIC FORUM! I don't know when you got so egotistical that you claimed the Public Forum as the GS Forum but other teams are still posting here.

I gave my opinion on how you made diplomacy with GoW much more difficult, and then gave that remark, and you actually refuse to make the connection! Amazing!

Ghengis, I meant that your often childish behavior during GS-GoW chats was what made diplomacy so much more difficult. True, prior to the point where you were appointed as ambassador to GS and served a very short term, you didn't have any ambassadorial duties to GS, but you did participate in several chats where other members of GoW who were also not ambassadors participated. You used to throw a lot of sarcastic remarks and lameass insults into the air, and often stormed out of chats after throwing some rather nasty words at the representatives of GS if you didn't like what you heard. (some of your teammates apparently didn't like this method of diplomacy either, and stayed after you had left to explain how much they disapprove of your action and asked to continue the conversation more calmly; GoW could have just been playing "good cop, bad cop", but somehow I doubt it that your behavior wasn't authentic )

quote: Vox and GS were virtually impossible to deal with. Vox got much better later but GS didn't improve much. Even the simplist of deals took weeks to negotiate with GS. Admittingly, this jaded my attitude to GS. There were several times we had negotiated multi team trade deals with ND, Lego, Lux, and Roleplay only to have to hold up everything while Vox and GS took days to respond. Eventually this led to not even attempting to bring GS into deals. It wasn't worth the time and effort of the other teams putting their games on hold to deal with them.

Thanks for your honesty Ghengis.
I definitely see the problem here. As a team that decides out of consensus most of the time, we were slow on diplomacy. I hope that this post will serve as a real wake-up call for my team.

	28-08-2003 19:14									#176
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Personally,

I never found dealing with GS particularly difficult. Especially when stepping in at the particular time that I did.

Perhaps that is just because I myself prefer to do things in a methodical manner whereas GF is, I agree, much more spontaneous.

That being said, I am saddened to hear that GS found the chats to be difficult due to the outbursts of one Mr Farb. I don't remember any cases during my time where he had any major impact on any negotiations, though. One more mistake I made. One more thing for me to learn from.

There were a few at the end I missed, though. And really failed in those chats by not even providing what had become my standard of having an outline. Those chats probably did not follow the strictly business aproach that GS had (hopefully) come to expect when I held chats.

	28-08-2003 19:21									#177
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO So if you knew it wasn't a fair deal, why all the fuzz when we didn't accept it? And... little risk in gangraping RP for sure, but also no gains for us either. We needed 3 teams on Bob, either ND-GoW-us or ND-GoW-RP. First option wasn't possible, so we only had one way out... it still surprises me that you don't realize you forced the issue, noble goals and personal preferences aside. BTW, I don't mind this war, it makes the game a lot more insteresting, and so should you feel about it. What glory is there in rollercoasting over a civ? DeepO

I think it was a matter of breaking our trust.
We thought we were getting our diplo relations back on track. I know Unotho put in a lot of work.

As a team, we worked hard to get the luxery deal.
We worked damn hard to get the NAP. Something GS first said that they would never do.

It is incrediably frustrating dealing with you guys, because it takes so long for you to come back with deals.

We started to discuss long term plans after a "conflict" on Bob.
We thought we had enough trust between us that we confirmed that there would be war.
We got the feeling that you would not get involved if it was a RP&GoW war against ND.
We thought we had enough trust between us, that we actually gave you prior warning that RP was going to be the target.


We made it clear that we did not want GS cities on Bob. We thought we had done enough work on the luxury deal & the NAP deal to make it difficult for GS to get involved.

And finally, we thought that GS's honor code would keep you out. That is why we brought it up and attacked it, because from the GoW perspective, you did not abide by the spirit of the NAP...which should be against your honor code.

Many GoW members were/are still peeved.



Now having said all that, did GS surprise us when they did get involved ? ... no not really.
We expected you would... that is the reason why we went to such lengths to try and keep you out.
And even after we did so much... we still expected GS to get involved.
Either cash/luxery/resource loans to RP. Tech trading. And even military action.

And its past midnight here .... so I am going to

	28-08-2003 19:26									#178
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::shakes head amazed::

All that hard work to gain our trust and get a NAP, and then to land troops next to an undefended city....breaking your own agreement with us.

And THEN, to act indignant about it!!!

Remarkable.

-=Vel=-

	28-08-2003 19:27									#179
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To talk diplomatically with Ghengis was almost impossible. I remember a chat I had with him, when I was GS's player. That was shortly after we got contact at all. Mind you that Vox denied us contact for fairly long. Ghengis called our bahavior isolationistic (heck, how could we contact before if we didn't have contact at all!) and he called our "Alliance with Vox" (he called it so) a danger for his team. If we won't stop to do so, all other teams would ally against us, so he said.

If an AI civ talks with me in this tone, I tell it to bugger off or to declare war. Politeness forbids me to act so with a human. But if I'm bullied like this by another person, I have every right to ignore him in the future.

	28-08-2003 19:32									#180
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I understand H_E.
One thing though: what made you think that there was any trust between GoW and GS? Perhaps you could trust our word (except when you were obviously trying to manipulate us to fall into your plans for eventually winning the game, as it became apparent to GS during the GS-GoW-ND chat), but what made you think that we could trust yours? After breaking every single deal and even crossing the red line of showing us fake screenshots (which we actually paid for)... well, some of us were angry at GoW, but we had plenty of rational reasons why not to trust your team.
Or maybe I just misunderstood you?