24-08-2003 21:39									#31
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler I still think Iraq will be more like Lebanon.

I agree with this. The most frustrating part is that it could have and still could be avoided if Bush wasn't such a control freak. All he has to do is turn over political control to the UN and France, Germany, Russia, and India will all send troops. I'd go for a compromise where the UN gets political control (who wants to be involved in that rats nest any way?) while the US, having the majority of military forces, keeps military control.

	24-08-2003 21:41									#32
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How do you seperate military and political control in an occupation?

	24-08-2003 21:41									#33
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quote: The economy is starting to show some strong signs of rebounding.

But hasn't rebounded....

quote: Jobless claims down.

the rate of jobless claims is slowing... but still... each week, more jobs are lost. Call me when we start to have positive job growth. But don't hold your breath.

quote: The Dems have not provided any acceptable alternative.

There are nine of them that are all better than Bush.

I can see it now... in 2007 when we finally have a strong economy and positive job growth with a Democratic president, dopey conservatives will hail the Bush policies.

	24-08-2003 21:42									#34
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO The economy is starting to show some strong signs of rebounding. Economic leaders are up. Jobless claims down. Taxes are lower and we still have over a year to make it look like Iraq is getting under control. The Dems have not provided any acceptable alternative. At this point a Bush 2nd term looks likely. It is, of course, still way to early to tell.

That new jobless claims are dow does not mean that new jobs are being created. Growth at 2.5% (Which is what is forcasted) isn't enough to create many jobs: 2.5% isn;t strong either, anyway. As for taxes being lower, not if you count people's local porperty taxes and other local taxes going up to meet local problems.

	24-08-2003 21:45									#35
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quote: \We won "the war" in Iraq. That in itself makes the Vietnam scenerio moot. The fact is that Iraq, if it resembles anything at all, is like the Phillipinnes after the Spanish American War..

nah... the invasion was successful... that's it. The occupation is going bad. In Vietnam, the US had much military success... but it couldn't accomplish it's goals... and thus... failed. I'm only using that comparison because it was a situation in which overwhelming military superiority amounted to didley squat.

quote: The problem in Iraq is an admin. unwilling to own up to the true size of the commitment they need to end up with a sucess in Iraq. The US has the resources to "win" in Iraq but we are politically unwilling to bear them alone, yet this amdin. is unwilling to accept the sort of international support needed to make up for this lack of enthusiasm at home.

I agree... just like Vietnam... the admin is unwilling to do what it takes to win because of political considerations. You can nit pick all the differences between the two conflicts all you want. They are very different. I'm making a broad comparison based upon the goals. To compare it with a conflict in around the turn of the 20th century is a mistake.

	24-08-2003 21:45									#36
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Sava, it is true that the rebound has not happened yet. ALL indicators are that it will. If it does, then job growth is almost a given.

As to the acceptable alternatives, I was refering to how I believe main stream America will not embrace any of them. Perhaps I am wrong, but none appear to have broad support even in their own party.

	24-08-2003 21:48									#37
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quote: As for taxes being lower, not if you count people's local porperty taxes and other local taxes going up to meet local problems.

That's the old Reaganomics bait and switch. Sure... cut federal taxes for the rich... then let state and local govt's raise taxes across the board and shift the blame.

quote: Sava, it is true that the rebound has not happened yet. ALL indicators are that it will. If it does, then job growth is almost a given.

well call me when it happens, mkay

quote: As to the acceptable alternatives, I was refering to how I believe main stream America will not embrace any of them. Perhaps I am wrong, but none appear to have broad support even in their own party.

You do realize that you are comparing them to the most unpopularly elected president of all time? Mainstream America hasn't embraced Bush at all. You are confusing post 9-11 patriotic furvor with support. It's actually quite pathetic considering he pissed away the popularity he had after 9-11.

	24-08-2003 21:54									#38
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I like the so called "bait and switch" you describe. I can actually drive over to my councilman's house right now to gripe about taxes and spending. (In fact I will see him at the ballpark in a couple of hours as his son plays on the same team as mine.). I have never been able to do that with a national representative. Local funding gives more local control. Surely a good thing, don't you think?


As to your second point...mkay.

And lastly, I do not claim that Bush has broad support, but he is a sitting President(and that does help with many undecide at poll time) and he does have the support of his party. The Dems have an uphill fight. Bush has made it easier in ways, but it is still nat an easy rode for them.

	24-08-2003 21:57									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Sava nah... the invasion was successful... that's it. The occupation is going bad. In Vietnam, the US had much military success... but it couldn't accomplish it's goals... and thus... failed. I'm only using that comparison because it was a situation in which overwhelming military superiority amounted to didley squat.

The goas in Vietnam were limited: keep the South Vietnamese government in control. That being our aim the startegy we used was not going to help us win, speically against a well armed opponent woth significant outside support. None of these things are even remotely true about Iraq. Our goals in Iraq are not limited, and the enemy is far weaker and external support is small in comparison to our own commitments.

quote: I agree... just like Vietnam... the admin is unwilling to do what it takes to win because of political considerations. You can nit pick all the differences between the two conflicts all you want. They are very different. I'm making a broad comparison based upon the goals. To compare it with a conflict in around the turn of the 20th century is a mistake.

As I said, goals in Vietnam were limited, not in Iraq. The US never planned to invade North Vietnam, destroy the communists there, unify the country under Saigon's control and tempt a war with China and/ or the Soviets. Any limitations on the US today are a direct result not of geo-politicla concerns, but political ideology and aims at home. This makes Bush's relative failure even more gauling in this case.

	24-08-2003 21:58									#40
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quote: I like the so called "bait and switch" you describe. I can actually drive over to my councilman's house right now to gripe about taxes and spending. (In fact I will see him at the ballpark in a couple of hours as his son plays on the same team as mine.). I have never been able to do that with a national representative. Local funding gives more local control. Surely a good thing, don't you think?

nah... maybe in some places... but not where I live... in local governments, you don't have the diversity or the level of debate. In Naperville, or even Dupage County, or local government consists of all white, conservative dickheads that do whatever they want.

There are more checks and balances on the national level. And since we are one country, I'd rather things like education, health care, and economic policy are controlled at the national level so that we can more easily give equal opprotunity. If you "deregulate" things to the local levels, you get the great desparity of quality in things like education. That's part of the reasons rich suburban schools do so well and poor inner city schools suck.


edit: but that's the conservative dream... decrease national responsibility and let everyone fend for themselves on the local level.

	24-08-2003 22:01									#41
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Gepap: well regardless of the specific differences... the overall outcomes are the same... failure...

	24-08-2003 22:01									#42
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I was under the impression the Iraqis attacking US/British troops, were Baathists who had lost what power they had, when Hussein's regime was toppled. It is not a widespread Iraqi rebellion against the US.

And once again, we'll see.

	24-08-2003 22:03									#43
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And Vietnam was a failure because we never had a clear objective, and those directing the war were politicians.

	24-08-2003 22:05									#44
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Sava, I agree with you on the points you outlined. I would say that federal funding is very adequate for defense and education. I have no problem with national policies and national funding on these issues. But when I see my federal dollar being spent to study the maiting habits of snail darters then I think they have to much $$ for our own good. My councilman would not be able to walk out his front door if he voted for that one.

Federal policy and funding definately has its place. The problem is that it has overstepped its bounds. Many decisions do belong at the local level. Cutting federal funding (i.e. tax cuts) should force the government to reasses priorities. Unfortunately, Congress has the power of deficiet spending. Not a bad thing in itself, but the abuse the hell out of it to keep from having to make tough decisions. To bad for all of us.

	24-08-2003 22:06									#45
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We have the same problem now.

	24-08-2003 22:06									#46
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quote: I was under the impression the Iraqis attacking US/British troops, were Baathists who had lost what power they had, when Hussein's regime was toppled. It is not a widespread Iraqi rebellion against the US.

It's mostly Al-Qaeda types that have flooded into the country. Saddam kept those types out... he kept the country stable and secular. The US went in, got rid of Saddam, but didn't have any plan to stabilize the country. Poor planning, no vision for afterwards... just like Vietnam

quote: And Vietnam was a failure because we never had a clear objective, and those directing the war were politicians.

and this is different from Iraq how? Bush isn't micromanaging as much, but he certainly isn't giving the military the tools it needs to accomplish it's goals.

The Iraqi people made their desires clear... "no bush no saddam, yes yes for Islam"

Like it or not... this is a clash of civilizations... treating it as anything else will result in failure.

	24-08-2003 22:08									#47
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How can you say we have failed in Iraq? Don't you think you are being just a bit premature? Or did you expect the US to show up and everything to instantly change? Seems pretty naive to label it a failure at this juncture.

	24-08-2003 22:09									#48
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Sava, I agree with you on the points you outlined. I would say that federal funding is very adequate for defense and education. I have no problem with national policies and national funding on these issues. But when I see my federal dollar being spent to study the maiting habits of snail darters then I think they have to much $$ for our own good. My councilman would not be able to walk out his front door if he voted for that one.

But cutting all funding because of such abuse is not the right thing to do. You don't get rid of corruption that way, it just passes the buck.

quote: Federal policy and funding definately has its place. The problem is that it has overstepped its bounds. Many decisions do belong at the local level. Cutting federal funding (i.e. tax cuts) should force the government to reasses priorities. Unfortunately, Congress has the power of deficiet spending. Not a bad thing in itself, but the abuse the hell out of it to keep from having to make tough decisions. To bad for all of us.

I agree that federal funding has overstepped its bounds... I think corporate subsidation and local pork that congress allocates is the problem. The solutions that conservatives, reaganites, and such have propogated are like chopping off an arm because it has a mosquito bite.

	24-08-2003 22:10									#49
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO How can you say we have failed in Iraq? Don't you think you are being just a bit premature? Or did you expect the US to show up and everything to instantly change? Seems pretty naive to label it a failure at this juncture.

We haven't failed... but we are failing... and Bush isn't changing his approach to things.

	24-08-2003 22:10									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Gepap: well regardless of the specific differences... the overall outcomes are the same... failure...

Vietnam lasted 8 years: this has gone on 6 months. This amdin. has gotten off to a lousy start and seems as of yet unwilling to take policy steps that might mitigate their early failures and to fess up to the real eventual costs of this excercise in nationa building. BUt Iraq is not, as of yet, a failure, speically since it is possible to have clear golas vis a vi Iraq. would trully love it if instead of just harping on the WMD issue the dems. acknowledeged that now that we are in Iraq, we have to do everything we can to "win it". In esscence state that while the Bush admin. was good enough to oust Saddam (any admin would be good enough, given the quality of our military), they are not capable of winning the peace. Thus, is Americna wants final and complete victory in Iraq, vote Dem. cause the bush amdin.isn't as capable of doing what now needs to be done.

	24-08-2003 22:12									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Verto And Vietnam was a failure because we never had a clear objective, and those directing the war were politicians.

The part of this excercise to be controlled by the military is relatively over. Today it is Bremmer and then Rummy and Wolfie and Cheney back home who control the policy (OK, eprhaps they let Bush do somehting once in a while). Those folks are all politicians.

	24-08-2003 22:15									#52
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quote: Vietnam lasted 8 years: this has gone on 6 months.

this has been going on for 12 years... This is just a continuation of the first Gulf War. Bush's new approach to things isn't making any progress at all. He's turned a relatively stable regime into a situation like the Balkans... secular tension is rising... and worse yet, Islamists from all around the region are flooding in and attacking Western interests with terrorism. Saddam needed to go, but without a plan in place to stabilize the country, we should not have gone in.

The situation will continue to degenerate until Bush allows the UN to step up and take control. A large peacekeeping force is going to be necessary to secure Iraq's borders and stop the influx of terrorists. The US military isn't designed for this role. The US military is designed to destroy a large conventional force... not fight a guerilla war.

	24-08-2003 22:17									#53
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney there's a three-way civil war in iraq these days roland? must of missed that one...

What part of "will" do you not understand?

	24-08-2003 22:17									#54
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Right now every little thing that goes wrong in Iraq has the Iraqi people blaming the US. If the lights go out it's the occupiers fault, etc... If Bush had set up an Iraqi ntional government to take care of these issues then we wouldn't have gotten bogged down in these details and the Iraqis could have directed their anger at the new government instead of us.

	24-08-2003 22:19									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Right now every little thing that goes wrong in Iraq has the Iraqi people blaming the US. If the lights go out it's the occupiers fault, etc... If Bush had set up an Iraqi ntional government to take care of these issues then we wouldn't have gotten bogged down in these details and the Iraqis could have directed their anger at the new government instead of us.

And then we would be in the position of trying to prop up an increasingly unpopular regime..wow, so much better...

It would be better if we had gone in with a better plan for how to keep the lights on. These guys seriosuly underestimated the possible power vacuum to be created with the fall of the regime.

	24-08-2003 22:20									#56
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quote: Right now every little thing that goes wrong in Iraq has the Iraqi people blaming the US.

that's exactly why I wanted UN support for this war... but Bush pissed away the post 9-11 worldwide support he had in a little over than a year. I still remember Jacques Chirac, "We are all Americans...".

	24-08-2003 22:25									#57
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why should the UN have to bail the US out?

The UN should stop being the American *****!

	24-08-2003 22:26									#58
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man why should the UN have to bail the US out? The UN should stop being the American *****!

Don't you realize that type of unilateralist attitude is what got the US in this mess?

	24-08-2003 22:30									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Don't you realize that type of unilateralist attitude is what got the US in this mess?

If the US had accepted UN help in the first place (before the war) and tried to be a bit more considerate, then I would be all for it.

But if the US gets itself into a mess, it shouldn't be allowed to go crying to other countries to have THEIR soldiers die for US ignorance and stupidity.


If you make your own bed lie in it!
And several other clichés.

	24-08-2003 22:32									#60
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler What part of "will" do you not understand?

so you're saying there's going to be a three-way civil war in iraq?