24-08-2003 22:34									#61
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And then we would be in the position of trying to prop up an increasingly unpopular regime..wow, so much better... It would be better if we had gone in with a better plan for how to keep the lights on. These guys seriosuly underestimated the possible power vacuum to be created with the fall of the regime.

Yes, that would make the new government less popular but they would still be an Iraqi government instead of a foreign occupier so they will likely be more popular then the current arrangement.

	24-08-2003 22:35									#62
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man If the US had accepted UN help in the first place (before the war) and tried to be a bit more considerate, then I would be all for it. But if the US gets itself into a mess, it shouldn't be allowed to go crying to other countries to have THEIR soldiers die for US ignorance and stupidity. If you make your own bed lie in it! And several other clichés.

Well, if the consequences only affected the US, then I'd be all for that. But the Iraqi people are stuck in the middle of all this. But then again, nobody bothered to think of them before the war, why would it be any different afterwards?

	24-08-2003 22:37									#63
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man why should the UN have to bail the US out? The UN should stop being the American *****!

As long as the US pays for the largest share of the UN then the UN can do as it's told or find a new sugar daddy.

	24-08-2003 23:01									#64
	Re: Like father, like son - Bush support starts to unravel over Iraq Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse And doesn't Clinton start to look better and better and smarter and smarter? Its the economy stupid!

You mean the buffoon who gave us subject matter for a Ridley Scott movie? Oh, and wasn't it under his tenure, and the great intel, immigration and law enforcement regimes that the principal participants in the 9-11 attacks entered the US?

But Clinton did good for the economy. Yep. Those good ol' days when Andersen, Enron, WorldCom, Adelphia and others hadn't got caught. Yeah, stock growth based on fraud sure is good for the economy. But Bill managed to raise more money for the Democratic Party than anyone else, ever. A lot of it from the technology sector, you know, those dot co... er, uh never mind....

I think Bush pretty much sucks, but Clinton sure as hell was no great shakes.

	25-08-2003 00:34									#65
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney so you're saying there's going to be a three-way civil war in iraq?

3-5 way as soon as the occupying power looks weak enough. That's still a while off. But you don't have to wait long for the first signs.

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/m...main/index.html

	25-08-2003 00:35									#66
	Re: Re: Like father, like son - Bush support starts to unravel over Iraq Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat But Clinton did good for the economy. Yep. Those good ol' days when Andersen, Enron, WorldCom, Adelphia and others hadn't got caught. Yeah, stock growth based on fraud sure is good for the economy.

Not to forget the Rubin-Greenspan tandem that fed the bubble.

	25-08-2003 00:54									#67
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quote: Not to forget the Rubin-Greenspan tandem that fed the bubble.

Wasn't Greenspan the one who warned us of "irrational exuberance"? Eh, I guess he didnt warn us enough then.

("Now, you stock investors quit with that irrational exuberance or I'll cut your NASDAQ priveleges for a week! ")

	25-08-2003 01:02									#68
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If the U.N. *doesn't* help out, I think it would be a tragic mistake of placing politics before peace.

The U.N. should be there to help out people and nations, regardless of the blunderings by weak dictators and easily-deceived presidents.

In the eyes of many Americans (particularly on the right), the U.N. is worthless. If they were to save our asses in Iraq, we in the US will be hearing about it for years. That alone, I think, might make it worth it, if only for an ego-check.

	25-08-2003 01:19									#69
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"If the U.N. *doesn't* help out, I think it would be a tragic mistake of placing politics before peace."

That's only possible if the Bush admin is willing to allow it to play a role, which is unlikely. And even if, it may be too late anyway.

	25-08-2003 01:21									#70
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I wonder, for some reason the supporters of Bully and Bliar seem unable to post and comment on this issue.
What could be the cause?

Where is Imran?
Where is Drake T.?
Where is Ned?
Where is Diplo?
Where is Sprayb, and Dino?
Where are Fez, Sloww, and their buddies?
Where is our beloved moderator himself?

They can't be banned all, can't they?

I would love to discuss with them, how to punish treacherous France, Germany and Belgium. How to dismantle the UN. And how to reward Aznar and Berlusconi for their most generous and substantial support....

	25-08-2003 01:30									#71
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quote: Originally posted by S. Kroeze Where is our beloved moderator himself?

Which one? There are three of us, all beloved I am sure.

	25-08-2003 01:31									#72
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quote: Originally posted by S. Kroeze I wonder, for some reason the supporters of Bully and Bliar seem unable to post and comment on this issue. What could be the cause? Where is Imran? Where is Drake T.? Where is Ned? Where is Diplo? Where is Sprayb, and Dino? Where are Fez, Sloww, and their buddies? Where is our beloved moderator himself? They can't be banned all, can't they? I would love to discuss with them, how to punish treacherous France, Germany and Belgium. How to dismantle the UN. And how to reward Aznar and Berlusconi for their most generous and substantial support....

	25-08-2003 01:59									#73
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Tell you what Alexander's Troll.
Worry about whatever little Pygmy bastard runs your block of rock.

	25-08-2003 02:00									#74
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Which one? There are three of us, all beloved I am sure.

Dear/Beloved MichaeltheGreat,

Of course all three of you are truly beloved.
But since it is not your habit to insult people, I do not consider you a moderator.

Sincerely,

S.Kroeze

	25-08-2003 02:10									#75
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I'd like to make comment on some things said here.

A) Bush tried longer than he should have to get the U.N. on-board.
B) This was a return to the original war, since conditions of the CEASE FIRE were not met.
C) 1441
D) The U.N. , by their own inaction, is worthless.
E) France, is France. That says it all.
F) There was no place but down to go in the polls, since no President has ever had a higher rating than Bush.
G) There will always be protestors and chickenshits.
In the first days of the U.S., they were known as Tories.

	25-08-2003 02:59									#76
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Journalist: What's wrong with the French?

George Bush Senior: They're French

True words.

	25-08-2003 04:08									#77
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand I'd like to make comment on some things said here. A) Bush tried longer than he should have to get the U.N. on-board. B) This was a return to the original war, since conditions of the CEASE FIRE were not met. C) 1441 D) The U.N. , by their own inaction, is worthless. E) France, is France. That says it all. F) There was no place but down to go in the polls, since no President has ever had a higher rating than Bush. G) There will always be protestors and chickenshits. In the first days of the U.S., they were known as Tories.

Well said Sloww. Everyone is saying that there was no plan for post war Iraq. I doubt that. The questions is: What was the plan? Where are we in relation to that plan? What adjustments have been made to compensate for plan deviations? Are we evaluating force levels based on current info?

These are legitimate questions. To simply say "We had no plan! We are failing!" is to not apply any realistic logic to the situation.

Bottom line: Rummy, Are we on plan or not!?!

	25-08-2003 04:18									#78
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The admin.s plan was based on a whole of sunny assumptions, such like:

We will get a joyous welcome when we go in, large sections of the Iraqi army will surrender in an organized way, Iraqi beaurocrats will stay on the job or will return to work days after the end, meaning that the US will be able to coopt and use the ld arms of the regime,the least quesitonable ones to run the place: we will find all the WMD's we said would be there, proving our case: everyone will be cowed by our overwhelming victory and no one will want to pick on us...

None came true to the extent the admin. thought they would, if they came true in any way at all.

As for Bush tryign to get the UN on board for too long: bullsh1t. The US based its UN timetable almost completely on its military buildup. The time between when the military fet enough pieces were where they needed to be to attack and the time we atatcked was very short. And given the current state of WMD programs, 1441 does not realygive us anything, since as far as we can tell, the Iraqis were tellign the truth on most of the salient points, so you can;t ecven use it as an excuse anymore.

	25-08-2003 04:23									#79
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The problem with the UN is that nobody else has any peacekeepers available. Everyone is pretty much stretched thin.

Eurocoms have the best forces next to the US and they are all pretty much used up.

	25-08-2003 04:28									#80
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The French and Germans have tens of thousand of men defending their state from..whom? Fellow NATO members?
Besides, peacekeepers don;t have to be top-notch troops. The Indians and Russians have plenty of troops too that would serve just as well.

	25-08-2003 04:31									#81
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand I'd like to make comment on some things said here. A) Bush tried longer than he should have to get the U.N. on-board. B) This was a return to the original war, since conditions of the CEASE FIRE were not met. C) 1441 D) The U.N. , by their own inaction, is worthless. E) France, is France. That says it all. F) There was no place but down to go in the polls, since no President has ever had a higher rating than Bush. G) There will always be protestors and chickenshits. In the first days of the U.S., they were known as Tories.

Tories weren't the ones with "dissenting" opinions... the "patriots" were the ones rebelling against the unjust rule of King George...

	25-08-2003 04:33									#82
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French and Germans are spread thin also. French all over Africa and Germans are busy down in the Balkans and in Afghanistan. Germans also have Consitutional restrictions.

Russians don't have anybody available as their army is busy blowing up Chechnya.

India might be a possibility but them and the Pakis might blow up at each other again at any minute.

That only leaves Chinese available.

	25-08-2003 04:34									#83
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The admin.s plan was based on a whole of sunny assumptions, such like: We will get a joyous welcome when we go in, large sections of the Iraqi army will surrender in an organized way, Iraqi beaurocrats will stay on the job or will return to work days after the end, meaning that the US will be able to coopt and use the ld arms of the regime,the least quesitonable ones to run the place: we will find all the WMD's we said would be there, proving our case: everyone will be cowed by our overwhelming victory and no one will want to pick on us... None came true to the extent the admin. thought they would, if they came true in any way at all.

GePap, i know that this is the popular theory of the Press, but I have yet to see any administration timetable or interim goal agenda. In spite of all that is bad in Iraq, there is far from anarchy. Organizational structure seems to be being put in place. Most of the "resistence" seems to be imported. I am willing to accept that we are off plan, but it is hard to do that when we really don't know the plan.

Our 1st question should be, "What is the plan?" don't you think?

	25-08-2003 04:36									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker That only leaves Chinese available.

Hmmm...With trouble brewing in Korea, would they really move troops to the ME? (Assuming that ANYBODY wanted them.)

	25-08-2003 04:39									#85
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quote: Originally posted by GePap As for Bush tryign to get the UN on board for too long: bullsh1t. The US based its UN timetable almost completely on its military buildup. The time between when the military fet enough pieces were where they needed to be to attack and the time we atatcked was very short. And given the current state of WMD programs, 1441 does not realygive us anything, since as far as we can tell, the Iraqis were tellign the truth on most of the salient points, so you can;t ecven use it as an excuse anymore.

Even Hans the Wonder boy admitted that they violated 1441. Did anyone really doubt what "serious consequences" meant to GW? C'mon...going back to the UN at all was due to the Cry Baby French making a worldwide issue and the subsequent need of Tony to try to get acceptance.

	25-08-2003 04:40									#86
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Not really.

They certainlty have numbers, but like you said, there is no chance the US is going to let them in there.

China isn't very big on the whole UN peacekeeping thing anyway.

	25-08-2003 04:42									#87
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Hmmm...With trouble brewing in Korea, would they really move troops to the ME? (Assuming that ANYBODY wanted them.)

with the potential to field an army 300million men strong, i think they coudl spare a few

	25-08-2003 04:44									#88
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I can't recall a time that China ever deployed beyond their boarders in a peaceful way. Anybody??

	25-08-2003 04:44									#89
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I don't know about you guys, but the last thing I want is China involved in ME affairs.

	25-08-2003 04:46									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I don't know about you guys, but the last thing I want is China involved in ME affairs.

ditto X 100