18-09-2003 08:12									#91
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In truth they do not put all that much about it either, but they do attempt to put all of their moves. Looking at Dom's DAR in the AUSG101 opportunistic thread here.
I would think some of the clutter could be skipped, such as moving scouts/warriors about, in favor of just any event that they triggered. This would make it so you may list what you are doing with the Ai and why. Some of the detail being done there is for a reason, but this run could be about diplomacy, not the ins and outs of playing at a given level. Althought the more oyu are willing to do the more valuable it will be. Maybe it will have to become a special AU course.

I am not sure what those items are, but it could be what is your requirement to make contact to see what is open. Is it when a new tech is learned, is it a new wonder is started, what are the triggers. Do oyu contact them every turn after a certain point, do you just have a sense of when?

	18-09-2003 16:33									#92
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This thread was meant as a help to new Emperor players by some more experienced players at that level.
Now, how can we improve things? I agree with vmxa1 that we should do things differently, especially if one day this would become a specific Au course.

The current approach is a DAR-style: explaining turn-by-turn what we do it and why we do it. For me , this makes long DARs (long to write and long to read). I am in favor of skipping the 'I sent my worker NE and he starts on a mine on the hill' style and focus more on strategy.

Another one would be more strategy-oriented, meaning:
1. the broad picture: what do I want to achieve, once I see the land and my neighbours? A PP game, a conquest game, some 'pruning', what else?
2. the 20-turn strategy: 'I want to block the Ottomans, therefore I will build a city NE; for this, I need a settler...'
3. the micro-management strategy: 'I want to have a 5-food city, herefore I...'
4. the techs startegy: which techs do I research and why.
5. the diplomacy strategy: how do I trade, with whom, why, why not?

When I read the AUSG101 DAR's, I have a feeling like 'damn, I didn't build a granary right away as xxx, now I missed an opportunity and my game is not as good as xxx'

This is wrong: here are no 'only best' way of doing things. But I have the impression, correct me if I am wrong, that for this thread, DARs which are too specific can discourage new players "Hey, by 1500BC xxxx and currency and 9 cities, I have only 6 and I am still researching mathematics, therefore I am already too ways behind, I quit'.

So why not try to do some strategy DARs? As long as the new player follows his startegy and can compare it with our posts, he's doing fine. After all, ToeTruck won his game almost 200 years before me, so what?

Your input? Why don't we (you, that is) start the French game and make your DAR differently? By the end of the game, I believe we'll all have a better grasp of our 'mentor's DARs'.
Of course, if somebody else wants to post another game...

	18-09-2003 20:42									#93
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I personally have no problem with as much detail as anyones to put in, I was just thinking of saving work for ToeTruck. The readers can skip over things. In GOTM, they are detailed enough that you could replicate it. This only works for the first 100 turns or there abouts. After that it would be a monsterous task to log actions.

Now one of the things that the current AU game does is to have a save periodically. This means that if a student see they have not managed to get the results they wanted, they do not have to fall farther behind, but can use the best ball method and load up the next break point.

	19-09-2003 06:11									#94
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I’m trying something a little different with this log. With the last game in this thread, I posted fairly traditional DAR’s going into detail whenever I was in the mood. This game, I’m trying to take the “20,000” foot view so to speak.

Next game, I’ll drill down on one aspect of my builder game. Vmxa1 has suggested the Foreign Advisor screen which I think is an excellent idea.

The builder game as I play it has five distinct phases which always appear in the same order:
- Laying the Groundwork
- Claiming What Is Rightfully Yours
- Wiping the Slate Clean
- Railroads and Hospitals
- The Space Race

Here are my reports for the first two phases playing Mountain Sage's French start. Sorry that this is lumped together like this. I had intended something a bit more organized, but I got playing a little too quickly last night.

Next game I'd like to do something a bit more educational.

****************************************
Laying the Groundwork:
****************************************

Goals:
1) Establish a core of 4-6 cities with low corruption and high shield production to fuel my military.

DAR 3500BC: (Contact with Mongols)

Very seldom if ever do I hold on to techs. I like to have the AI researching for me as much as possible. In this case, I traded Alphabet and Masonry for Pottery, Warrior Code, Ceremonial Burial, and 10 gold. That gives me what I need to REX and prepare for the Archer Rush while also allowing me to start researching Bronze Working.

****************************************
Claiming What Is Rightfully Yours:
****************************************

It’s 1200BC and my core cities are well developed; I’m ready to take on the Mongols. I’m looking for 15 – 20 good city sites.

Sometimes this phase of the game consists entirely of REXing. With this map, however, a little war is essential.

Goals:
1) Hit the Mongols hard
2) Negotiate a lucrative Peace Treaty
3) Break the Peace
4) Eliminate the Mongols

DAR 850BC: (Make Peace)

I like to make peace partly through the assault to pick up a couple of techs. In this case, I got Horseback Riding, Writing, Ulaanbaatar, and 19 gold.

DAR 730BC: (Mongols Build Pyramids)

Time to end this. Right before my final assault, I made peace with the Mongols one last time which snagged me Code of Laws.

DAR 650BC: (End of the Mongols)

The Mongols have been eliminated so it’s time to settle the rest of the island and begin the building. I snagged a leader towards the end of the war which will become my Forbidden Palace.

****************************************
Wiping the Slate Clean:
****************************************

This is the start of the building process. I will build a bunch of Workers as quickly as I can and beeline to Literature and Republic.

Goals:
1) Clear all Forests and Jungles.
2) Mine all Hills and Mountains.
3) Grow every city to size 12 as quickly as possible.

DAR 610BC: (Contact with India)

India landed a Warrior and a Settler in the southern end of my island. Hmm…

This is an excellent example of how I use diplomacy. Obviously, I want this island to myself so I must attack the Indians, but first I will trade for a map and whatever techs I can swing.

Step 1: Trade Mathematics and Code of Laws for Contact with Carthage, World Map, Map Making, and 21 gold.

Excellent. The map shows me that Carthage and India share an Island with two luxuries but not much else. I want one of them to be eliminated so the survivor can be a good trade partner and help me with research.

Step 2: Trade Horseback Riding to Carthage for World Map and 96 gold.

Step 3: Establish an Embassy in Carthage for 36 gold.

Step 4: Attack the Indian Warrior.

Step 5: Arrange a Military Alliance and a Right of Passage agreement with Carthage.

Step 6: Give Carthage Code of Laws and Mathematics to make him Gracious.

DAR 150BC: (The Discovery of Literature)

Traded Literature to Carthaginians for a piddling. But…switched all my cities over to building Library.

Here is the zoom map as of 150BC:


From here on in, my game will be almost identical to the Greece game. I have 25 Workers and enough military units to garrison each city.

Please forgive this monstrously long post. Next time I will be more concise.

- TT

Last edited by ToeTruck on 20-09-2003 at 08:01

	25-09-2003 16:04									#95
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TT,

Thanks again for your posting. I agree with you. You have now two choices: either you play it as a builder, or you go on a conquest spree. I finished it as a builder, with a few short wars in between to keep me occupied....
As stated above, I will post below another game (France again, archipelago, standard, Barbs random, PTW) and only comment on strategy. This should give some people a better feeling how to develop a strategy in relation to the geography and your neighbours. I will start my comments next Monday (I hope somebody finds the time to play a few rounds) in 1870BC and 1450BC.
Good luck to everybody.

Attachment: f, 4000 bc.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	25-09-2003 21:26									#96
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One thing I have always fought myself over is the tech trade/gift issue. I just hate to get techs to them even one turn sooner. I will do it, but I loath it. So I was interested in your comment about not holding them much.

	25-09-2003 22:22									#97
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I'll do so after i have finished my current deity game

(I'll post a report of the deity game as well, but it'l take a while, i didn't play civ3 in more than a year, so now i take several minutes per turn to think, and sometimes when i need to make important decisions, i just quit and think a day about it at work before deciding

	25-09-2003 23:54									#98
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MS,

The French game you posted seems to be the same you posted before. Did you mean to post another?

- TT

	26-09-2003 20:35									#99
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TT,

You are right. I don't have the original archipelago save in 4000BC any more. I'll post my 3750BC save. This should do.
My apologies to everybody.

Attachment: m, 3750 bc.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	26-09-2003 20:37									#100
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And the starting point (just change the name of the capital to 'Paris' or whatever).

Attachment: f-3750bc.jpg
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	26-09-2003 22:21									#101
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Thats very good of you but I notice from your screenshot you havent got any great leaders yet !

	27-09-2003 03:48									#102
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Mountain Sage,

What's up with that Worker unit? Why are they off building a road to the east? It's not improving a square that you'll be labouring on anytime soon, nor is it speeding up an expansion route.

	28-09-2003 18:09									#103
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Well, it's been a very busy week in which I finished up the first French game but didn't have a chance to post any results. RL got in the way of Civ.

The first French game ended for me with a 1680AD Spaceship launch. I have several game saves and a couple of notes if anyone is interested. Let me know and I will post what I did when and why.

- TT

Last edited by ToeTruck on 28-09-2003 at 18:23

	28-09-2003 19:35									#104
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I haven't gotten much further with this...

Attachment: osman of the ottomans, 4000 bc.sav
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	29-09-2003 15:51									#105
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quote: Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus Thats very good of you but I notice from your screenshot you havent got any great leaders yet !

Wrong: I have a stack of 11 GL waiting in the goodie-hut (but don't tell the others!).

	29-09-2003 15:55									#106
	Re: Worker in screenshot Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by jkelly Mountain Sage, What's up with that Worker unit? Why are they off building a road to the east? It's not improving a square that you'll be labouring on anytime soon, nor is it speeding up an expansion route.

I hooked the dye as to save an early temple and a second warrior. Maybe not very smart but effective.

I'll wait a few days before I post some screenshots, as not to spoil your discoveries.

	01-10-2003 16:27									#107
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Theseus, thanks, I will play it as my next game.
Oh, anybody interested in a Viking game (standard, small continents)?


Let's see some interest from my second French game:

France – 1870 BC

For those interested, let’s look at the big picture and forget this time the micro-management. Of course, you should do this at every level of play, but this gets even more important on Emperor and above.

Landscape:
- The terrain around the capital looks promising: grassland, cattle, 1 dye, forests, hill and gold.
- Grassland and forest around your second city, with hill and gold.
- You can found another city east of your second city, on he peninsula.
- North of your capital, you can found a city on the NW with hills and gold and another dye.
- Another city can be founded NE of your capital, on the dye by the sea.
- You’ll have a total of 6 dyes, great for trading.
- The terrain N looks not very promising (1 dye and 1 gold), but you might get some interesting resources later.
- No rivers.

Neighbours:
- You are obviously on a smallish island (expected, since we play on archipelago).
- The good news: you have only 1 neighbour.
- The bad news: Scandinavia is very aggressive.
- There is another island NE.
- The Viking land looks very promising: flat with ivory and a lake (irrigation).

Your immediate strategy:
The Scandinavians are very aggressive. The have already blackmailed you twice. Therefore, you have two priorities:
- Prune back the Viking (you are building a ‘strong’ military (4 Warriors, 4 Archers), a second barracks is being built and a road is already in place).
- Rex between building military units. You should first expand N, then S.
- Since you are industrious, 1 or 2 Workers should be sufficient for now.
However, this will not be easy, since Scandinavia has probably more and better land S. This will be tough and will take a lot of time.

My long-term strategy:
When I play on archipelago, know that I will be contacted ‘soon’ by other civs. Since other civs have usually more contacts already, they should have more techs than me. To avoid lagging behind in techs, I often use the following strategy, which I applied here:
I researched IW at max. speed, then researched Literature via Writing (the French already have Alphabet, remember?). Literature is a great trading tech and the source of the Glibrary. Once you get the Glibrary, I go for Republic (skipping Monarchy). Once in Republic, I upgrade my 2 Warriors I have in each city (ex military police) and will then take out the Vikings. Techs like HR etc. will be traded or bought.

Now, will this work?

Attachment: f1870bc.jpg
This has been downloaded 114 time(s).

Last edited by Mountain Sage on 03-10-2003 at 16:20

	09-10-2003 16:45									#108
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I finally got around to doing a bit of playing. I had a blast with Theseus's game and with MS's second French game.

Here is a zoom map from 2030BC in the second French game:


And, here's a snippet from my log:

*****************************

3750BC: This game begins with the capital site and first research tech already chosen.

Since Writing is being researched, I'm somewhat committed to 40 turns of building treasury - which is a fine way to start until the picture becomes clearer. Once Writing is discovered, I'll have a better idea of what to do next.

Goals:
- Research Writing at 1 beaker/turn.
- Establish a couple of cities to build units.

3600BC: Contact with Scandanavia.

Trade Masonry and Alphabet for Warrior Code, Pottery, Ceremonial Burial and 10 gold. Excellent!

Goals:
- Build Granary and establish Settler Pump

2070BC: Researched Writing.

Vikings want Writing and 87 gold for Bronze Working.

I could then research Iron Working, but instead I've decided to hit the Vikings hard with an Archer Rush. I will research Literature - not to build the Great Library but to use as trade bait and build Libraries. I will still do the trade.

Traded Writing and 87 gold for Bronze Working.

Right now, I have three cities which I have named as follows:

SettlerPump - The capital city with a Granary, a Cattle, and a Wheat.
FirstBarracks - Southern outpost with low corruption and high production.
SecondBarracks - Northern outpost with low corruption and high production.

Goals:
- Establish two more low corruption cities with barracks.
- Build Archer/Spearmen teams.
- Research Literature as quickly as possible.

Vikings established an embassy.

*****************************
My strategy at this point was to build a core of 5 cities consisting of a Settler Pump and four military cities cranking out units
*****************************

That's it. Since I've finished the game, I'll wait a bit to give MS some time to post.

Talk to you later.

- TT

	09-10-2003 22:34									#109
	Inflate your Upload Space

Writing and 87 for BW, ouch. Do you think that if you had spent some of the money, you could have gotten the trade for less. IOW the reason they asked for 87 was that you had it to give? This is one of the reason, I am leary of piling up cash before the contacts.

	09-10-2003 22:50									#110
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Writing and 87 for BW, ouch. Do you think that if you had spent some of the money, you could have gotten the trade for less. IOW the reason they asked for 87 was that you had it to give? This is one of the reason, I am leary of piling up cash before the contacts.

Yeah, vmxa1, that *was* a big "ouch". At first, I didn't want to make the trade. My knee jerk reaction was "that's not worth it." Then I thought about how I really needed the Spearmen and how many turns it would save overall...so I pulled the trigger.

I also agree with you that the AI considers how much cash you have on hand and what your current income is when making demands.

I suspect in this case, however, the Vikings were close to researching Writing anyhow so it really wasn't worth much to them. I say this because Expansionistic civs stuck on an island almost always beeline to Map Making. BTW: The price they demanded also indicated no other civ was on our continent.

- TT

	10-10-2003 02:29									#111
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Sounds right to me, thanks.

	22-10-2003 18:35									#112
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About Theseus' game...
Well, that one was a crazy one.
I wanted to play it 'chaotically', meaning without a set strategy (warmonger, PP, PUP etc.).
Some results:

1450 BC:
We have a better idea of what's going on: mountains, jungle and more mountains. No Horses! Persia and the Zulus as neighbours.
Ach! another wasted PP game...
Techs-wise: we got all 1st tier techs + Mysticism and IW. Writing soon. 326 gold.
Military: 6 warriors, 4 archers, 5 spears.
Goal: expand N and SW (what else?).

Attachment: o1450bc.jpg
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	22-10-2003 18:40									#113
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10 BC (a few years later):

The rexxing is over. Missed the spices and dyes N, but at least my 'empire' is consistent.
We are in the Middle Ages with Monotheism and Feudalism. We have discovered the other civs but the two blocks are kept separated.
Now we have 900 gold and Engineering in 20 turns.
Military: 13 archers, 9 spears, 7 swords, 5 pikemen. Pitiful, I know, but things will become more lively soon...
Our neighbours include Babylon now... even better...

Attachment: o10bc.jpg
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	22-10-2003 18:51									#114
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1180 AD:

Babylon and we are at war (guess why?) Those stupid Persian let them pass by... Now they are also at war with the Babs...
I just captured Pasargadae (with the Sistine Chapel!!!!), but I knew I could not hold it (too close to Babylon and the Persian capitol). Then the Persians made peace with Babylon and I feared they would declare war to me with all my troops far north (imagine my troops like Napoleon's in Russia...).

So, what to do? INSTANT TELEPORTATION.

I massed my troops in Pasargadae, and tried to sell it to somebody else. Imagine! nobody would even spend a gold piece for the Sistine
So I gifted it to Russia...

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	22-10-2003 18:52									#115
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And now they are cosy in my capitol

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	23-10-2003 16:23									#116
	Inflate your Upload Space

1010 AD:
Another few years have passed by. I annexed all of the Zulu lands (me, imagine!) after they declared war one time too much. Now they have only 1 city left.
On the minimap you can still faintly see the sole Russian city of Pasgarade with its precious Sistine Chapel.

Attachment: o1010ad.jpg
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	23-10-2003 16:25									#117
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1180 AD:
Persia had the brilliant idea, after declaring war to Babylon, also to declare war to me.
And therefore, my 8th or 9th war will start. This time, as shown, I am ready...

Attachment: o1180ad.jpg
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	23-10-2003 16:28									#118
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1745 AD:
Persia has been history for a long time. Now its Babylon and me. The last Zulu city declared war on me. Now it's only smoldering ruins...

Attachment: o1745ad.jpg
This has been downloaded 58 time(s).

	23-10-2003 16:34									#119
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1841 AD: the end of the game.
Did you notice the small red blob on the map? It's called KAI Babs.
This pic shows why I am VERRRY nice to them.
BTW, I am still in Monarchy! Well, armies are expensive, after all...
And you know what? I never had 190 military units. Even Arrian's mighty armies look like Boy Scouts....

Attachment: o18461.jpg
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	23-10-2003 16:37									#120
	Got spare money?

But of course, the real danger did not come from Babylon.
To win this game, I had to steal Superconductor, Satellites and the Laser from the French. At least I had those 12'000+ gold to spend.
And still, it was a close call...

Theseus: thanks again

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