28-08-2003 10:36									#31
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And how exactly is that supposed to happen? It doesn't magically go away just because you want it to. Seems like a pretty good interim measure to me, while the school systems fix their administrative policies.

And in my experience in two high schools, I've never seen any other groups experience anything close to the **** gay pople had to deal with. High school culture is extremely homophobic.

	28-08-2003 11:01									#32
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in my highschool over 30% engaged in homosexual activity when my younger (by one year) sister was going there

when Iw as there while certain people were called gay and hassled for it, they were usually just geeks who were hassled no matter what and were not gay, I found it interesting that during the same time certain people were hasslying the dorks and calling the gay, they (the ones hasslying) were engaging in homosexual activity themselves (the jocks were the worse for this)

Jon Miller

	28-08-2003 11:02									#33
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personally I think this is a terrible idea

they have tried private schools (boarding) along this same line, and from what I heard they were terrible

jOn Miller

	28-08-2003 11:18									#34
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If 1 in 10 people are gay, 1 in 10 schools would be required to be, at the very least, gay-friendly.

	28-08-2003 12:00									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Replace them from the magical pot of surplus quality counselors in New York...right... And a bunch of new counselors in a New York highschool will transform all homophobes into accepting gentlemen.

Maybe I should apply for a job as a school counselor

	28-08-2003 12:26									#36
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While I agree largely with the idea that we should learn to sink or swim together, this school seems to be the sort of exception that I can accept. It's really more of a last chance for kids who have already dropped out. It's not being considered as the "solution" to homosexual students, as only the tiniest minority of gay students will ever see this place. Finally, the article says that a fairly large percentage of the students that attend Milk H.S. are transexual / transgendered. These are the sorts of people who are going to attract the absolute worst sorts of abuse, and they tend to need the most focused sorts of counseling available, abuse aside.

	28-08-2003 13:53									#37
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quote: And a bunch of new counselors in a New York highschool will transform all homophobes into accepting gentlemen.

So now the only gentlemen are the ones who agree with you?

If you have a private school haven, then fine.
I'm not paying for a segregated school. Hasn't the US gone beyond those halcyon days?

MTG:



Tell us if your application gets accepted.

	28-08-2003 18:17									#38
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 So now the only gentlemen are the ones who agree with you?

No, the gentlemen are the people who don't bully those who are different.

And you already are paying for segregated schools if your public districts are like everywhere else.

We have sports schools, arabic schools, vocational schools, adult-learning schools, etc. New York is, evidently, the same. And I'm sure they're like that in BC, too.

Offering a safe haven for bullied students isn't so wrong.

Either way you're paying for these kids' educations, what's the difference if they do it among people who will let them learn rather than in a hostile atmosphere?

	28-08-2003 22:21									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander While I agree largely with the idea that we should learn to sink or swim together, this school seems to be the sort of exception that I can accept. It's really more of a last chance for kids who have already dropped out. It's not being considered as the "solution" to homosexual students, as only the tiniest minority of gay students will ever see this place. Finally, the article says that a fairly large percentage of the students that attend Milk H.S. are transexual / transgendered. These are the sorts of people who are going to attract the absolute worst sorts of abuse, and they tend to need the most focused sorts of counseling available, abuse aside.

Excatly my thoughts. Those here that think that somehow the public school system can do somehting else to help these kids: well, it will be too late for them by the time real change has occured. By then, many of these kids would have no education and no lives: people's ideology should not stand in the way of allowing these kids to get an education. That is the point of the school system, to educate, not to enforce a strict dogma on the system. Harvey Milk works, and thus, it should continue.

quote: If the government can set aside money and bureaucratic effort to create a special school, it can do more to combat bullying in its own schools. More supervision of hallways, harsh zero-tolerance policies for repeat bullies and a strong effort to relay the message that bullying won't be tolerated could do alot. As it stands, what are they doing is taking action to protect some victims of bullying, but ignoring other victims. That isn't right.

How big was the HS you went to? I went to a HS that is so competative, only 8% of applicants get in. The school had over 3500 people in it. Some NYC schools get to 5000. Do yoiu honestly believe has the resources, even if it wanted to, to police all araes to crack down on verbal bullying? I am sorry, but that is a pipe dream. As for ignoring other victims, what the hell are you talking about? Which ones are being ignored?

	28-08-2003 22:34									#40
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I'm with Gepap and Sikander on this one.

I also agree, of course, that the school system at large needs to make a better effort at dealing with bullying. Whether it be bullying of gays, or "nerds" or whatever.

Highschool culture is crap, and something needs to be done about it. I think, however, that means starting in elementary & middle school, not to mention at HOME.

-Arrian

	28-08-2003 23:05									#41
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This is a last chance school to help kids who would otherwise leave the system. Why is it wrong?

	28-08-2003 23:29									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The topic of this thread is a reality check -- those proposing existing schools suddenly become non-homophobic need a reality check.

The highschool I went to was by and large totaly accepting of gays-I have NEVER once seen, or heard of anyone doing anything bad to another person because they were gay. Granted-some morons still are homophobes but amoung themselves-I've never heard of anyone in my school being harrased for being gay.

There were plenty of out of the closest gays at my chool, and they were treated just like everyone else-though its worth noting I went to a middle class NY suburb highschool heh.

	28-08-2003 23:34									#43
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Notice how 75% of the kids in this school are minorities. now, I am betting that a very small percentage of posters here are either minorities or have gone to inner city schools (Speer being only the most obvious exception), so that very few posters here have had experiences equal to those these kids face. My HS was very accepting of Gay and lesbian studnets, and my HS is utterly Atypical for NYC. I seriously doubt though that some kid going to a HS with 4000 kids in Bedford-Stuy or the South Bronx or in my neighborhood of Washington Heights will get any understanding, specially given the rampant homophobia among blakcs and hispanics in this country, plus count immigrants from countries were homophobia is also rampant.

	28-08-2003 23:35									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen The highschool I went to was by and large totaly accepting of gays-I have NEVER once seen, or heard of anyone doing anything bad to another person because they were gay. Granted-some morons still are homophobes but amoung themselves-I've never heard of anyone in my school being harrased for being gay. There were plenty of out of the closest gays at my chool, and they were treated just like everyone else-though its worth noting I went to a middle class NY suburb highschool heh.

Then, obviously, the gay kids at that school wouldn't need Harvey Milk H.S. This school is for the kids who have become depressed, uncontrollable, or are going to drop out because of the harassment they face on account of their sexuality.

	28-08-2003 23:59									#45
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"It is nice to make it better for everyone, but you can't force that by adding hall monitors or whatever else you think would be a bright idea. Given time, society opens up more to it."

Society may open up to homosexuality eventually. That's great, but you are still leaving the good majority of people who are victimized behind and doing nothing about it. Is the mesage we want to show that tormenting people and engaging in behavior shown to cause long lasting mental problems(esp. with depression) is OK so long as it is not done on the basis of Race, Religion, Gender, Nationality, or Sexual Orientation?

I object to this because it is only done to help particular type of victim, while leaving the rest behind to suffer. Moreover, it isn't even clear if this will help all gay students- some will be reluctant to change schools, others will have homophobic parents unwilling to use this solution for them. Spend the money and bureucratic resources instead on making sure a safe envrionment to go to school is provided to ALL studnets. It won't happen magically or overnight, but it must be done.

	29-08-2003 00:06									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Society may open up to homosexuality eventually. That's great, but you are still leaving the good majority of people who are victimized behind and doing nothing about it.

I still don't understand this argument, because there's nothing we can do about it.

The school exists for the worst-case kids, the ones who can't stay in school because the problems are so bad.

It's not a situation where we create a school and suddenly don't care about treating gay people with respect in high schools. It's just an extra options for those most at risk for dropping out (or who have dropped out).

It's not replacing policies or anything like that, it's just another option. That's all.

I'd also love to hear your proposal on how we magically convert the affected schools to respect those kids in time for them to go back to school next year.

	29-08-2003 00:10									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I object to this because it is only done to help particular type of victim, while leaving the rest behind to suffer. Moreover, it isn't even clear if this will help all gay students- some will be reluctant to change schools, others will have homophobic parents unwilling to use this solution for them. Spend the money and bureucratic resources instead on making sure a safe envrionment to go to school is provided to ALL studnets. It won't happen magically or overnight, but it must be done.

I think perhaps you forgot the parts of the article where it speaks about all the DOZENS of special school programs in this city: your beliefe that ONLY gay students get this kind of aid is not only unsubstantiated, but runs counter to the evidence provided.

	29-08-2003 00:14									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'd also love to hear your proposal on how we magically convert the affected schools to respect those kids in time for them to go back to school next year.

Dear Asher,

While we oppose separate schools for people based on sexual orienation, we also acknowledge the reality that we cannot change things immediately.

Please stop distorting our arguments.

Sincerely,

MrFun

	29-08-2003 00:21									#49
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I'm not distorting, I'm just waking you up.

You insist these kids are not writeoffs, but then you also oppose a school where they can actually learn since we can't change all of the schools now.

Hello!

	29-08-2003 00:25									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm not distorting, I'm just waking you up. You insist these kids are not writeoffs, but then you also oppose a school where they can actually learn since we can't change all of the schools now. Hello!

As I ALREADY explained . . . . .

professional, sympathetic counselors replacing incompetent ignorant goons is part of the solution.


Let me know when you want me to reiterate AGAIN.

	29-08-2003 00:26									#51
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i went to an inner city school, until i was 13. basically the people who say you're not going to stop people being teased for being gay are dead right. gay is used as an insult by kids (i still use it and i'm 19 ffs!). i certainly don't think it's hardcore homophobia, just the fact that gay kids are different, and like any other different kids, eg. fat kids or thick kids, they're going to get the mickey taken out them.

	29-08-2003 00:29									#52
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun As I ALREADY explained . . . . . professional, sympathetic counselors replacing incompetent ignorant goons is part of the solution. Let me know when you want me to reiterate AGAIN.

You still don't get it.

You admit it takes time to "fix" this kind of stuff, meaning the kids in the system right now are screwed.

So there is an interim solution, a special school for those worse off with bullying (transgendered, transexual, etc) where they can still get the education they have a right to.

So basically you oppose this interim solution, while at the same time acknowledging it'll take a while for any solution to work (and I think yours, frankly, will never work). So what do we do with the kids currently in the system?

You insist they're a writeoff -- but you oppose the only solution put forward.

You need to think about this a bit.

	29-08-2003 00:33									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You still don't get it. You admit it takes time to "fix" this kind of stuff, meaning the kids in the system right now are screwed. So there is an interim solution, a special school for those worse off with bullying (transgendered, transexual, etc) where they can still get the education they have a right to. So basically you oppose this interim solution, while at the same time acknowledging it'll take a while for any solution to work (and I think yours, frankly, will never work). So what do we do with the kids currently in the system? You insist they're a writeoff -- but you oppose the only solution put forward. You need to think about this a bit.

That is part of the unfortunate phenomena of social progress -- some people will be left behind.

You see separate schools as some kind of instant solution??

	29-08-2003 00:53									#54
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun That is part of the unfortunate phenomena of social progress -- some people will be left behind.

So you admit they are writeoffs then, contrary to what you said before. Disgusting.

quote: You see separate schools as some kind of instant solution??

Temporary solution? Absolutely! Have you not heard the success stories of this school that's been around since the mid-80s?

It's not separate schools as in, let's put the homos in one and heteros in the other. In fact, heteros are even allowed in Harvey Milk (God knows why they'd want to!).

It is absolutely a temporary solution to give those kids an education instead of writing them off as you're so eager to do.

	29-08-2003 01:23									#55
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There is absolutely nothing in the world that stops the NYC HS system from trying to get more sypathetic and better trained councellors WHILE having this program continue as it has for well over a decade. Can anyone argue with this point?

	29-08-2003 01:28									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I told people from the start that I think it's a good idea, a lot of kids just get sh*t from their immature classmates for being gay. For some people it gets bad enough that they have to drop out, or otherwise are academically and socially at a huge disadvantage over it. Offering a school as a safe haven (I used those exact words before, too) is a good thing, and the people who try to stop it aren't being very sympathetic. A lot of them don't make a lot of sense, like saying it's the start of segregation again. Hello FUD, welcome.

But that IS a good point. Should white kids in the city say that they feel unsafe and that they're in the minority and that the other kids (blacks latinos whatever) assault them or give them a bad time and get a school to themselves? Being made fun of for being gay doesn't excuse his actions, though I am sympathetic that he did have to go through that.

On top of that is the issue of funding a segregated school with tax dollars if it's public (which I am still unsure if this is or is not a public school)

	29-08-2003 01:29									#57
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Were you refering too:

"As the article states, NYC has separate HS programs for: immigrants, pregnant kids, Troubled children, special ed kids, and all girl schools."

While gays are not the only ones with seperate HS programs, they are the only ones with a specific high school for harrasment victims

If we wanted to do this program honestly, they should create seperate schools for ALL people who are repeat victims of severe bullying, gays are not the only ones who have learning disrupted due to school harassment. It's still a shitty situation though to have people put away from mainstream society, and we should try harder to find alternatives to this solution.

	29-08-2003 01:32									#58
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quote: Originally posted by orange But that IS a good point. Should white kids in the city say that they feel unsafe and that they're in the minority and that the other kids (blacks latinos whatever) assault them or give them a bad time and get a school to themselves? Being made fun of for being gay doesn't excuse his actions, though I am sympathetic that he did have to go through that.

What many of these kids go through is far more than "being made fun of", which is why they have the triple suicide rate.

quote: On top of that is the issue of funding a segregated school with tax dollars if it's public (which I am still unsure if this is or is not a public school)

Did you read the article? (which points to dozens of toehr schools in the NYC system which have special entry requirements?

	29-08-2003 01:35									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi While gays are not the only ones with seperate HS programs, they are the only ones with a specific high school for harrasment victims If we wanted to do this program honestly, they should create seperate schools for ALL people who are repeat victims of severe bullying, gays are not the only ones who have learning disrupted due to school harassment. It's still a shitty situation though to have people put away from mainstream society, and we should try harder to find alternatives to this solution.

Only one problem with this: most kids who come under serious bullying can TRANSFER to other schools in the system, or to schools outside the system. Given the size of the problem, and the small size of harvey Milk, this school is a last chance for those for whom other possible solution do not exist, either becuase the problem is system-wide, or because they lack the resources or means to enter the other schools into which this is not a significant problem.

	29-08-2003 01:37									#60
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quote: On top of that is the issue of funding a segregated school with tax dollars if it's public (which I am still unsure if this is or is not a public school)

Yeah, it's separate and it's public. But these are the 100-odd student who don't the have the luxury of time to ponder such business. When your face is getting smashed in on a daily basis, you need help NOW.

Personally, I would like them to expand the academy to include others so there's no stigma of segregation or whatever. That would probably be the best way to go.