29-08-2003 01:38									#61
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quote: Originally posted by orange But that IS a good point. Should white kids in the city say that they feel unsafe and that they're in the minority and that the other kids (blacks latinos whatever) assault them or give them a bad time and get a school to themselves?

They would be allowed into Harvey Milk -- they don't discriminate based on sexuality, believe it or not.

	29-08-2003 01:41									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Asher So you admit they are writeoffs then, contrary to what you said before. Disgusting. Temporary solution? Absolutely! Have you not heard the success stories of this school that's been around since the mid-80s? It's not separate schools as in, let's put the homos in one and heteros in the other. In fact, heteros are even allowed in Harvey Milk (God knows why they'd want to!). It is absolutely a temporary solution to give those kids an education instead of writing them off as you're so eager to do.

I am not EAGER to write any suffering teenagers off.

I suppose in a utopian perfect world, no one would be left out in a socially progressive society.

	29-08-2003 01:48									#63
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Well, if somebody's up for CLOSING a school that already exists as a temporary solution to the problem, I would certainly say that person is eager to write those suffering teenagers off.

	29-08-2003 01:50									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Well, if somebody's up for CLOSING a school that already exists as a temporary solution to the problem, I would certainly say that person is eager to write those suffering teenagers off.

No, I would not close it -- but I still think it's not a good idea.

eg: I would not send my hypothetical gay child there; instead, I would try to find a school that has a significant gay support group.

	29-08-2003 02:04									#65
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If your child was being tormented to the point of being suicidal and dropping out of school, all you'd do is send them to a support group ...?

	29-08-2003 02:05									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Asher If your child was being tormented to the point of being suicidal and dropping out of school, all you'd do is send them to a support group ...?

First -- if I had sent them to the right school, this would not develop.


Second, let's say I did make a mistake -- time to relocate to a better school environment, counseling sessions, and anything else in addition, to help my "kid" emotionally and socially.

	29-08-2003 02:06									#67
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun No, I would not close it -- but I still think it's not a good idea. eg: I would not send my hypothetical gay child there; instead, I would try to find a school that has a significant gay support group.

What kind of public school wpould have such a program? After all, isn't having a program to council gay kids giving them speical treatmnet, one not being given to all the other kids!?

Given the general socio-economic status of most of these kids, this solution is not really a viable one.

	29-08-2003 02:07									#68
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quote: Originally posted by GePap What kind of public school wpould have such a program? After all, isn't having a program to council gay kids giving them speical treatmnet, one not being given to all the other kids!? Given the general socio-economic status of most of these kids, this solution is not really a viable one.

Would we hire counselors that are openly racist? I think not.

Same goes for not hiring counselors that are either openly homophobic, or whose ignorance ends up doing more damage to gay teenagers.

	29-08-2003 02:07									#69
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun First -- if I had sent them to the right school, this would not develop. Second, let's say I did make a mistake -- time to relocate to a better school environment, counseling sessions, and anything else in addition, to help my "kid" emotionally and socially.

Do you know what the NYC school system is like? Anbd I seriously doubt that most of these kid's parent's have the money to move out of the city, or send their kids to the type of private schools that might actually do this.

	29-08-2003 02:08									#70
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GePap -- missed my reply to your other post??

	29-08-2003 02:10									#71
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Would we hire counselors that are openly racist? I think not. Same goes for not hiring counselors that are either openly homophobic, or whose ignorance ends up doing more damage to gay teenagers.

How many councellors per student do you think regular front line schools are going to have? School councelloers are oevrwhelmed as is: I would add that it porbably would tale speical training for most of them to have a handle as to how to guide and help homosexual and transgendered students, training they are not going to get in the current budget, or any upcoming budgets, as high as per capita student spending my be.

	29-08-2003 02:12									#72
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quote: Originally posted by GePap How many councellors per student do you think regular front line schools are going to have? School councelloers are oevrwhelmed as is: I would add that it porbably would tale speical training for most of them to have a handle as to how to guide and help homosexual and transgendered students, training they are not going to get in the current budget, or any upcoming budgets, as high as per capita student spending my be.

Which is why this solution would require budgetary increases.

And regards to overwhelmed counselors -- with a budgetary increase, large schools would be able to afford a few more counselors.

	29-08-2003 02:16									#73
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The city as is has a 12 billion dollar school budget (wth 1.09 million students, that comes to oevr $10,000 per student). you won;t really get any significant budget increases, and infrastrcuture issue in the 1,200 schools in the system, plus issues with supplies would get priority.

Milk is a tiny fly serving a very small group of very troubled and endangered students: and it is doing a good job at it.

	29-08-2003 02:20									#74
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The city as is has a 12 billion dollar school budget (wth 1.09 million students, that comes to oevr $10,000 per student). you won;t really get any significant budget increases, and infrastrcuture issue in the 1,200 schools in the system, plus issues with supplies would get priority. Milk is a tiny fly serving a very small group of very troubled and endangered students: and it is doing a good job at it.

I'm not saying it should be illegal or shut down -- I'm just saying that in principle, separating teenagers on the basis of sexual orientation will not necessarily improve their social outlook in the long run, in spite of some exceptional success stories.

	29-08-2003 03:02									#75
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quote: We have sports schools, arabic schools, vocational schools, adult-learning schools,

Eh, but that's different.

Everyone has an opportunity to attend these schools, if you are good enough. In fact, I got to attend a 'special' program within the public school I attended although the students had to cover the costs associated with the program.

In this sense none of these programs are segregated.

As for the Arabic schools, are they public or private? Are they restricted to Muslims only and still receive public funding?

Again, I'm not against setting up a haven- if you care so much for these kids to do something now, then raise up the funds for a private school, "for gays only."

Don't try to leech off public funds.

	29-08-2003 04:05									#76
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quote: They would be allowed into Harvey Milk -- they don't discriminate based on sexuality, believe it or not.

I realize this, but then why identify it as a gay high school exactly?

Can we make a new high school and refer to it as a 'straight' high school, but make sure we don't exclude any homosexuals and assume they'll enroll?

	29-08-2003 04:25									#77
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There is a difference between segregation and seperation.

	29-08-2003 04:51									#78
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These kids go to this school becuase their peers make their lives a living hell. No kid chooses to go to this school becuase they want an "all gay" experience..they go to this school becuase they enocunter a hostile learning environment at other schools!

To me, this makes the situation OBVIOUSLY, CLEARLY, UNDENIABLY DIFFERENT from an attempt by any group to segregate itself voluntarilly.

	29-08-2003 05:01									#79
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Eh, but that's different. Everyone has an opportunity to attend these schools, if you are good enough.

Again, do your research: Everyone has an opportunity to attend this school too, it's just "geared" towards bullied gay students.

quote: As for the Arabic schools, are they public or private? Are they restricted to Muslims only and still receive public funding?

They're public, and anyone can join but it's geared towards Muslims.

This is Canada, for christ sake, we have two public districts in most cities: Catholic and Protestant.

quote: Again, I'm not against setting up a haven- if you care so much for these kids to do something now, then raise up the funds for a private school, "for gays only." Don't try to leech off public funds.

Again, help me out here: Either way you're paying these kids' educations, what difference does it make if in one case it goes to waste (regular school), or in another one it actually makes a more productive member of society? In either case, you're spending essentially the same money.

This isn't like they need to construct a big elaboriate school with walls thick enough to withstand throbbing gay orgies, they work out of an old office building to save costs.

You're going to have to assert that having kids switch schools somehow costs more money than having them stay in a school where they're constantly bullied. Good luck.

And for the record, religion and school have been formally mixed with public funds in Canada -- and I don't see you complaining.

Wonder why -- God fearing people seem to have double standards.

	29-08-2003 05:02									#80
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quote: Originally posted by orange I realize this, but then why identify it as a gay high school exactly?

That was the New York Post who did that, not the school board.

quote: Can we make a new high school and refer to it as a 'straight' high school, but make sure we don't exclude any homosexuals and assume they'll enroll?

Erm, that's 99.9% of the schools in America Orange.

	29-08-2003 13:26									#81
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Do my own research, eh?

quote: has operated a small public school, the Harvey Milk School, that accepted gay students who had either dropped out or couldn't cope at a mainstream high school.

I call band-aid. A better solution would be to make all students safe from bullying. There is no reason why homosexual students should not be able to function in a regular classroom, if we can reduce the bullying.

Going down this route will just intensify the bullying. "I hate gays.. If I make this kid's life hell, he will have to go to the 'special' school."

quote: Either way you're paying these kids' educations, what difference does it make if in one case it goes to waste (regular school), or in another one it actually makes a more productive member of society? In either case, you're spending essentially the same money.

So we should just accept the fact that bullying is inevitable? Crack down on bullying and we would not have this problem.

quote: And for the record, religion and school have been formally mixed with public funds in Canada -- and I don't see you complaining.

First off, I went to a public school. I don't have any particular fondness for the parochial schools.

Secondly, in Canada all parents sending their children to private schools still have to pay school taxes to the public system. Is this different in the US?

Finally, do parochial schools get public funding here in Canada? Are these schools open to all students, or just to nembers of the particular religious denomination?

	29-08-2003 18:13									#82
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 I call band-aid. A better solution would be to make all students safe from bullying.

*sigh*
We've already dealt with this.

quote: So we should just accept the fact that bullying is inevitable? Crack down on bullying and we would not have this problem.

Have you not read this thread or anything?
Of course we should crack down on bullying, it's just basically impossible (especially with the New York schools) to effectively do that. It's a pipe dream. This is a band-aid solution and not a real one, because we have no other choice right now until students cut the crap (good luck with that any time soon).

I'd rather have a band-aid on my wound rather than leaving it open to have bullies pour salt on it until they get bored like you seem to propose.

quote: Finally, do parochial schools get public funding here in Canada?

Yup, absolutely. They are public schools, just religion-based.

quote: Are these schools open to all students, or just to nembers of the particular religious denomination?

They are open to all students, just like Harvey Milk is.

	30-08-2003 20:12									#83
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quote: I'm not saying it should be illegal or shut down -- I'm just saying that in principle, separating teenagers on the basis of sexual orientation will not necessarily improve their social outlook in the long run, in spite of some exceptional success stories.

Who's talking about separating teens on the basis of orientation?

The school is not for gays, it is for the tiny percentage of kids (primarily ethnic gays) who have been bullied out of school.

No more straw men, please.

	30-08-2003 21:38									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I told people from the start that I think it's a good idea, a lot of kids just get sh*t from their immature classmates for being gay. For some people it gets bad enough that they have to drop out, or otherwise are academically and socially at a huge disadvantage over it. Offering a school as a safe haven (I used those exact words before, too) is a good thing, and the people who try to stop it aren't being very sympathetic. A lot of them don't make a lot of sense, like saying it's the start of segregation again. Hello FUD, welcome.

Imagine that, immature adolescents? What will we have next?!

	30-08-2003 21:47									#85
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Instead of wasting money on building a separate school for homosexuals, why don't they actually enforce the rules of the school (ie, no harassment, etc).

	30-08-2003 21:47									#86
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye quote: I'm not saying it should be illegal or shut down -- I'm just saying that in principle, separating teenagers on the basis of sexual orientation will not necessarily improve their social outlook in the long run, in spite of some exceptional success stories. Who's talking about separating teens on the basis of orientation? The school is not for gays, it is for the tiny percentage of kids (primarily ethnic gays) who have been bullied out of school. No more straw men, please.

well, ok then -- what straights want to go to a school designated primarily for gays?

	30-08-2003 21:48									#87
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Fag hags.

	30-08-2003 21:52									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Fag hags.

ah, ok

	30-08-2003 22:37									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Instead of wasting money on building a separate school for homosexuals, why don't they actually enforce the rules of the school (ie, no harassment, etc).

Becuase doing so is politically unnpopular and would cost far, far more and consume much more time. Also, they are adding 100 seats folks..that is peanuts.

	31-08-2003 09:04									#90
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If you don't want any more straw men, don't go to Italy.