31-08-2003 10:22									#61
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In MP, trades seem to expire after 20 turns whether you want them to or not. It's not impossible that the GoW/ND trade just expired naturally. In any case, my bet is that they're getting ready for Leo's, which could spell huge trouble since it would make their gold worth twice as much as ours in terms of upgrades.

Keep in mind that the tradeoff of gold for shields is just as good (or bad) upgrading WCs to knights as upgrading horsemen. We may also want to consider some warrior->MedInf upgrades, depending on how vital speed is to us.

EotS can trade a food for a shield to get up to 14 shields per turn. That would be perfect for building a knight before possibly switching to other units for upgrade, and we can focus on units for upgrade elsewhere.

	31-08-2003 10:23									#62
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Can a WC survive pillaging a mountain road? It looks like that was what you were planning on pillaging with.

	31-08-2003 10:24									#63
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Yes, I believe so. I was worried about that, due to CtP memories.

	31-08-2003 10:26									#64
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With EotS, if we go down to 12 sh to grow in 2, we get 12 then 13 shields. We could cash rush from 12 to 20 to rush a horse. Or, we can go 12 to 13 to do a spear, then at 15spt (after sorting) go to 2t horse.

	31-08-2003 10:59									#65
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Cash rushing is only half as cost-efficient as upgrading, so we're better off sticking to pure upgrades if we're cutting our iron anyhow (unless there's a very serious emergency). Regarding EotS getting more shields if it grows, where would the shields come from? The only way I see for EotS to gain shields by growing is to take the shields away from somewhere else, which is only a gain if it takes over an irrigated tile and has the tile switched to mining. Five-turn knights at 14 net shields per turn looks to me like about as efficient a use of the city as we'll get (and I would guess we'll be reconnecting iron often enough for upgrades to make that work).

	31-08-2003 11:09									#66
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EotS and Hurr can both get to 2 turn horse.

	31-08-2003 11:11									#67
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Hurr can give up a fur to get 14/16 (coast/mountain) 2 turn horse.

With that fur, EotS gets to 15 or 16spt itself to also get 2 turn horse.

	31-08-2003 11:20									#68
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By the way, we have 11 turns left on a peace treaty with RP. We can't declare war on them without attacking until that's over. If we might want to cut a trade route, we might want RP to stop roading Pamplona 6-9-9, since their having a road there would complicate cutting off trade. Alternatively, we could cut off our iron at WoC 3 and keep two workers on standby to reroad there the moment we need to. (Disconnecting and reconnecting on a grassland is easier than it is on a mountain, after all.)

	31-08-2003 11:26									#69
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We can pillage any tile, anywhere in Spain to cause the war.

Or, we can pillage 1 1 of Sirocco to cut trade.

Good catch on the peace length. I forgot about that

	31-08-2003 11:31									#70
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WoC 3 requires 5 worker turns to repair. Road and mine. Trying to avoid that, or we could cut iron this turn.

	31-08-2003 11:41									#71
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I added my economic recommendations to the first message.

Cutting Sirocco 1-1 would probably be the smoothest solution for turning our trade with Spain on and off. For the moment, no one's using the tile, so replacing its irrigation would be unnecessary.

	31-08-2003 11:47									#72
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Looking at recommendations. Are 2 horse better than 1 knight from Arashi?

	31-08-2003 11:50									#73
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And EotS. We can do a 2 turn spear, then 2 turn horse. Would that not fit the plan better?

	31-08-2003 11:53									#74
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We can have a pike in Typhoon in 2, and a spear in Sufa in 2.

Is that not good?

	31-08-2003 12:09									#75
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Also, moving Monsoon off the hills and onto the grass/mountain is a net loss of commerce.

I have to get this done.

I hope you like what I do, Nathan.

	31-08-2003 12:33									#76
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I have the email qued up to send the turn to ND. Still, I have misgivings. Do you agree with the cut iron, build many units then upgrade, Nathan?

I will pause a while.

	31-08-2003 12:33									#77
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither And EotS. We can do a 2 turn spear, then 2 turn horse. Would that not fit the plan better?

If we leave things in our current mode, Sandstorm grows next turn. That would be slowed down considerably if we try to push EotS's growth. I don't see how speeding up EotS's growth at Sandstorm's expense would be worth it when a five-turn knight in EotS would leave zero wasted shields.

After it finishes its current knight, Tempest can build a WC or spearman per turn. Tornado and Bolderberg can produce a WC or spearman every two turns, and Hurricane a horseman every two turns once it finishes its current knight (unless we keep it building knights). Typhoon and Sufa can probably each run about a three-turn pace with the right juggling. Add in some smaller towns, and I don't see us as needing for EotS to switch to lower-cost units instead of building a knight.

	31-08-2003 12:37									#78
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Also, moving Monsoon off the hills and onto the grass/mountain is a net loss of commerce.

Monsoon loses commerce, but Arashi gains the commerce back taking over the incense hill.

	31-08-2003 12:46									#79
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I have the email qued up to send the turn to ND. Still, I have misgivings. Do you agree with the cut iron, build many units then upgrade, Nathan?

It's risky, but not doing it is likely even riskier. We need to start taking territory back from ND ASAP.

	31-08-2003 12:53									#80
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Have we explored the possibility of trading Invention, maybe plus some gold, to Lego for Astronomy? That would put things just a tech away from RP's having the tech they need to trigger their GA.

	31-08-2003 12:55									#81
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Lego have Invention from GoW.

	31-08-2003 13:04									#82
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Diplomacy:
Gift WM and Toledo to Spain


Unit Movement and Actions:
3wc fm MilT upg to kn (300 gold)
wce fm WhiW moves 9 9 9 8. Fortifies. For real, this time.
wc 3 of Elio moves 3 3 3 3 3 6
ge 8 7 of Witt moves 8 7 2 3
g 1 1 1 1 of Witt moves 4 2 6 8
p 2 1 of Witt fortifies
g fm Siro moves 6, pause
k fm g 6 of Siro switches g
mir fm g 6 of Siro switches g
g 6 of Siro [k, mir] moves 4, unload all, move 6 6
gr 6 of Siro moves 6 6 6 6
gr 6 6 6 of Siro moves 6 6, pause
k 1 1 of WhiW moves 4, loads on gr
k fm Arashi moves 1 1 1 4, loads on gr
gr 1 1 of WhiW [2k] moves 4 4
p fm WhiW moves 2, loads on gr
k fm Bold moves 8 8 7 7, loads on gr
g 4 4 1 of Bold [p. w] moves 4 4 4 8
p 2 of Cycl moves 8 8 8
gr 6 6 6 6 of Siro [w, se] moves 4 4 4 4, unloads all
g 2 3 3 of Barc moves 1 4, pause
gr 2 3 3 [p, mi] moves 4 4, unloads all to Vale 8, pause
g 2 3 3 of Barc moves 1 4, pause
gr 2 3 3 [p, mi] moves 4 4, unloads all to Vale 8, pause
g 2 3 3 of Barc moves 1 4, pause
gr 2 3 3 [p, mi] moves 4 4, unloads all to Vale 8, pause
g 2 3 3 of Barc moves 1 4, pause
gr 2 3 3 [p, mi] moves 4 4, unloads all to Vale 8, pause
g 2 3 3 of Barc moves 1 4, pause
gr 2 3 3 [p, mi] moves 4 4, unloads all to Vale 8, pause
g 6 9 of Vale moves 1 9
5gr move 3, end turn
6k 7 of Barc move 1 4 2
2k 4 of Barc move 4 2
2p 8 9 of Barc move 1 1 1
p 7 of Barc moves 1. Fortify all
2mi, 4c 8 9 of Barc move 1 1. Fortify all
k fm Siro moves 4 7 7 7 4. Fortifies
se fm Siro moves 1 1 4
mir fm Siro moves 1 1 4
k fm EotS moves 4 7 7 7 7 4
3k 9 of Pamplona move 6. Fortify
mi 4 of Tole skips turn
w 2 of Tole moves 3
mi 6 6 of Tole attacks Mycenian horse at 3
p 6 9 9 of Tole moves 1
p 9 9 9 of Tole moves 1
mi 9 9 of Tole moves 1
g 4 4 4 1 1 1 of Inon moves 4 4 8 8. spots ND coast watcher
pe fm Toledo moves 8

w 2 1 of Diss fortifies
w 1 of Diss moves 2. Fortifies
w 7 of Diss clears
w 8 7 of Diss chops
w 2 3 of WofC clears
w 2 2 of Inof roads
w 2 3 of Bliz mines
w 2 1 of Witt roads
3w 4 1 1 of Siro road
w 3 of Elio moves 7 8 8
w fm Siro moves 4 7 8


Production:
EotS finished kn. Start kn, will change to hor with cash rush, or sp with no rush
Hurr
Cycl
Bold finished kn. Start kn, will change to hor or sp
Temp
Torn
Typh
Aras finished kn. Start kn, will change to hor
Sufa Rush to 10sh for 16gld, change to pike (sp in 2)
SanS Rush to 10sh for 4 gold, change to pike (pk or set in 4)
Mons
OliG
WhiW finished pk. Start pk, will change to sp
Bliz

Work Force:
EotS off 4; onto 8 7
Hurr
Cycl off 4; onto 4 1
Bold
Diss off 2 1; onto 6
Temp off 6 3, 8, 4; onto 6 9, 4 7, 2 1
Torn
Typh off 2 3; onto 6. For one turn
Aras off 3 3, 6 9; onto 6 3, 1
Sufa off 4 7; onto 6. Will change back next turn
SanS off 7; onto 9. Rush to 10 sh for 4 gold, change
Mons
OliG off 6 3; onto 9 9
WhiW
Bliz

City Shield Status:
EotS 13 > 15
Hurr 16 > [16, 14, 16, 14 alternating coast and mountain tile]. We may sqweeze a kn out first
Cycl 06
Bold 10
Temp 22 > can lose 2 or 7
Torn 10
Typh 07
Aras 14 > needs to bump up
Sufa 06
SanS va
Mons 07 > 5 [cash rush to 10 for 3 turn spear after this next pike in 1]
OliG 04 > growing
WhiW 04 > growing
Bliz 05 > growing

	31-08-2003 13:37									#83
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You guys rule.

Shall we prepare a S.P.I.N article about our attack on Valencia?
I can do it today evening (GMT+2:00) if noone else steps up. I will release it after ND has passed the save, so the news goes out when GoW sees our forces outside Valencia.

	31-08-2003 15:03									#84
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What happened to my plan for a four-turn knight from Arashi? Spending my time figuring out how to tweak a few extra shields out of our cities isn't worth it if my plans are going to be ignored without a solid reason.

In regard to cash rushing, every shield rushed with cash is two shields that cannot be purchased as upgrades. Thus, with our iron cut, cash rushing only makes economic sense when wasted excess production can be reduced by at least as many shields as are rushed. For example, suppose a city is at eight shields and its optimal production is (and will remain at) five shields per turn. Rushing two shields yields a total of five: two from the rush itself and three from not wasting excess shields. The same gold could only yield four shields as upgrades, so there is a net gain of one shield.

But if the city were at seven shields with five per turn production, the gain from the rush would still be five shields - now three rushed and two in avoided waste - while the cost would be six shields of upgrades. Thus, rushing instead of upgrading would cost a shield, and would make sense only if urgency is great enough to justify the loss.

	31-08-2003 16:00									#85
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Well, Nathan, I do believe urgency justifies the loss- with Invention out there, Leo's close and probably will be built by GoW or ND, and don't forget Gunpowder, which will force a stalemate in this war... We can't afford to lose any turn, a direct attack on either GoW or ND is the only way we can turn the tide of war right now, and the window of opportunity will not be open for long...

	31-08-2003 16:56									#86
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On the other hand, we already have six WCs we can upgrade (not counting our three elites). Factor in a few changes in production and we could easily have all our gold spent on upgrading WCs and a horseman or two to knights within five turns. (If we're spending gold upgrading anyhow, there's no compelling reason to wait for horsemen instead of upgrading WCs. Twenty gold per ten shields is twenty gold per ten shields no matter how it's sliced.)

	31-08-2003 21:05									#87
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Well played.

I didn't understand the comments about the peace treaty... can't one just declare war any time? Are you saying that a hostile action is required for a resource trade to be cancelled?

Things seem quiet... I guess it truly is darkest before dawn.

	31-08-2003 23:01									#88
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Damn... ND passed the save to GoW, and I still haven't written the article for S.P.I.N, and it looks like I won't be able to do it today. Can anyone else do it please?
Sorry.

	31-08-2003 23:20									#89
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Or maybe it's best if one of the better writers around here does the S.P.I.N article. I'm not that good at this kind of stuff.

	01-09-2003 00:55									#90
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay What happened to my plan for a four-turn knight from Arashi? Spending my time figuring out how to tweak a few extra shields out of our cities isn't worth it if my plans are going to be ignored without a solid reason. In regard to cash rushing, every shield rushed with cash is two shields that cannot be purchased as upgrades. Thus, with our iron cut, cash rushing only makes economic sense when wasted excess production can be reduced by at least as many shields as are rushed. For example, suppose a city is at eight shields and its optimal production is (and will remain at) five shields per turn. Rushing two shields yields a total of five: two from the rush itself and three from not wasting excess shields. The same gold could only yield four shields as upgrades, so there is a net gain of one shield. But if the city were at seven shields with five per turn production, the gain from the rush would still be five shields - now three rushed and two in avoided waste - while the cost would be six shields of upgrades. Thus, rushing instead of upgrading would cost a shield, and would make sense only if urgency is great enough to justify the loss.

I am sorry, Nathan. By that time it was very late, and I may not have made the right judgement. You could very well be right.