16-09-2003 01:57									#31
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Did not pick an overall winner - Real Madrid or top scorer - Ronaldo

	16-09-2003 01:58									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Why is that a bad thing? Only means more points for you...

On the games where I disagree with you .

	16-09-2003 02:00									#33
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Ah, that explains why I'm 28 points ahead of you then

	16-09-2003 02:03									#34
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Nah, you're just using a really good random number generator.

	16-09-2003 02:07									#35
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Yup, it's called a 'brain'

	16-09-2003 14:42									#36
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I didn't forget.

Winner: Real Madrid CF (ESP)
Top Scorer: Raúl (of Real M)

Group A:
1. FC Bayern München (GER)
2. Celtic FC (SCO)

Group B:
1. Arsenal FC (ENG)
2. Internazionale FC (ITA)

Group C:
1. RC Deportivo La Coruña (ESP)
2. PSV Eindhoven (HOL)

Group D:
1. Juventus FC (ITA)
2. Real Sociedad de Fútbol (ESP)

Group E:
1. Manchester United FC (ENG)
2. VfB Stuttgart (GER)

Group F:
1. Real Madrid CF (ESP)
2. Olympique de Marseille (FRA)

Group G:
1. S.S. Lazio (ITA)
2. Chelsea FC (ENG)

Group H:
1. AC Milan (ITA)
2. AFC Ajax (HOL)

Wednesday, 17-09-2003:
Olympique Lyonnais - RSC Anderlecht 0-1
FC Bayern München - Celtic FC 2-1
FC Dynamo Kyiv - Lokomotiv Moskva 2-1
Arsenal FC - FC Internazionale 2-0
AEK Athens FC - RC Deportivo La Coruña 0-3
PSV Eindhoven - AS Monaco FC 1-0
Juventus FC - Galatasaray SK 3-0
Real Sociedad de Fútbol - Olympiacos CFP 2-0

Tuesday, 16-09-2003:
Rangers FC - VfB Stuttgart 0-1
Manchester United FC - Panathinaikos FC 2-0
Real Madrid CF - Olympique de Marseille 2-0
FK Partizan - FC Porto 0-2
AC Sparta Praha - Chelsea FC 1-2
Besiktas JK - S.S. Lazio 0-2
AC Milan - AFC Ajax 2-1
Club Brugge KV - RC Celta de Vigo 0-0

	17-09-2003 01:44									#37
	Remove this text

Rangers FC - VfB Stuttgart 2-1
Manchester United FC - Panathinaikos FC 5-0
Real Madrid CF - Olympique de Marseille 4-2
FK Partizan - FC Porto 1-1
AC Sparta Praha - Chelsea FC 0-1
Besiktas JK - S.S. Lazio 0-2
AC Milan - AFC Ajax 1-0
Club Brugge KV - RC Celta de Vigo 1-1

code:
 1 MikeH              76 (+16)
 2 Zopperoni          73 (+12)
 3 Locutus            72 (+12)
 4 Paul               69 (+12)
 5 Wernazuma III      59 (+16)
 6 Sloth              55 (+14)
 7 Fergus Horkan      53 (+10)
 8 Wille              52 (+12)
 9 Yaroslav           51
10 Kitschum           49 (+14)
11 Solver             46 (+14)
12 OneFootInTheGrave  43
13 Azazel             32
14 Winston            31
15 Giovanni Wine      16 (+16)
16 Eli                13
17 Bas                 8 (+8)

	17-09-2003 14:50									#38
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There, Loc, again I gain more than you do!

	17-09-2003 14:57									#39
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Anyone watch any of the matches last night? Saw the Chelsea game and most of the goals.

Chelsea started with a very defensive formation, only really started playing when they brought on Lampard and Duff, not sure why they rested them. Petit and Geremi are good players but I think Lampard and Duff have been Chelseas best two midfielders this season.

Mutu looked good again but it looks like Crespo might take time to settle.

Shame Palathaniakos' defence didn't bother turning up to play ManU.

	17-09-2003 15:00									#40
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Saw a little bit of Madrid on the highlights. Same as last year - fantastic going forward, all over the place when going backwards. Sloppy goals conceded.

	17-09-2003 15:07									#41
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Yeah, there definitely looks like potential to get in at the back there, even more now Makalele is at Chelski.

They should struggle if they came up against some of the Italian teams with that kind of defensive openness.

	17-09-2003 15:07									#42
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Anyone watch any of the matches last night?

I saw the Milan - Ajax game live. It was a pretty good match.

I think Chelsea is just cautious in road games.

quote: Shame Palathaniakos' defence didn't bother turning up to play ManU.

Yes, a blowout win, and no goal for my fantasy striker Van Nistelrooij =\

	17-09-2003 15:12									#43
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I think you might be right about Chelsea, he picked a very defensive line-up, although it did have all his experienced Champions league players in it.

I would have liked to watch Ajax - Milan, I think Ajax might do well this season. I was very impressed with them last season and they've had a season to improve. 1-0 loss away in Milan is not a bad result really.

I can't believe Van Nistelrooy didn't get any points either.

	17-09-2003 15:26									#44
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I watched Ajax-Milan live, then tried watching Madrid, but I admit I fell asleep .

Will probably watch the replays today.

	17-09-2003 15:26									#45
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Ranieri is scared stiff. He can't disappoint Abramovich with the squad he has, so he's being risk-averse, especially against a smart counter-attacking team like SPP. They'll flow more at home.

Ajax will hopefully do well. The team lost key defender Chivu, and Escude is still making some (big) mistakes on coverage.
Up front, Sonck still needs some time to adjust, and coach Koeman also needs time to find ways to fill in new players like Soetaers.

But, a road loss against Milan was "accounted for" so it's no big deal. It's just a pity that Van der Vaart had such a good chance to make it 1-1 in added time =\

	17-09-2003 15:38									#46
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I think that's probably right and any away win in the Champions league is a good result. That said I've always thought that if you are attacking the other team can't be... although not to the extremes that Madrid take it.

	17-09-2003 16:48									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Solver There, Loc, again I gain more than you do!

Uhm, that's actually the first time... and the week is only half over

	17-09-2003 17:16									#48
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH I think that's probably right and any away win in the Champions league is a good result. That said I've always thought that if you are attacking the other team can't be... although not to the extremes that Madrid take it.

I've always been an advocate of offensive strategies; combined with majority possession, it forces the opponent backwards a lot, but it also depends on what the opponent is used to playing.
SPP appears to me as an organized counter-attacking team, like Dynamo Kyiv, that can switch to offense very quickly with a few passes. If you push your defense too far forward (fullbacks playing forward towards the midfield for instance), you'll leave big gaps at the back.

	17-09-2003 17:24									#49
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Chelsea started off with full backs pushing up but then 3 (THREE!!!) midfielders dropping back to cover the center backs.

	17-09-2003 17:37									#50
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Hm, fullbacks didn't have much to do anyway, since most teams attack through the middle.

It's too bad that attacking over the outside with wingers has grown extinct =\

	17-09-2003 17:46									#51
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When Chelsea stared to look good was when Duff came on and him and Geremi were attacking down the wings, supported by the full backs.

Attacking everything down the middle just left everything congested, no space for any attacks.

	17-09-2003 17:55									#52
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Absolutely, I really don't understand why youth trainers don't spend more time focusing on attacking down the wings.

There are no young players coming through who know how make the move, run, and cross the ball.

	17-09-2003 18:01									#53
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Maybe not in Holland but there are here. eg Duff, Bridge and Johnson for Chelsea, all young players who can do it.

But English football has always liked players crossing to the big center forward for him to nod it in. It's pretty much all we can do.

	17-09-2003 18:09									#54
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It's a good strategy, also because some goalies are very shaky in cross situations.

Over here, attacking down the wings is quite popular as well, with wingers like Zenden, Overmars, Van der Meijde, and Robben.
We don't get to see much of the Premiership over here, one or two games per week are broadcasted live, but it just depends who's playing, so I can't get a good view of what's going on.

The Ajax team that won the CL in 1995 played a 4-3-3 system with Overmars on the left, George on the right, and Kluivert in the middle. That team was dominant enough to force the opponent to adjust to its playing style.

The Ajax of today, however, is more conservative and adjusts itself to the opponent instead.

	17-09-2003 18:12									#55
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I think the Ajax of today has to be, although they are good they aren't quite as good as some of the teams they meet.

4-3-3 with two proper wingers seems to be becoming more and more popular again these days.

	17-09-2003 18:21									#56
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Yea, they tried to force the issue with wingers in the past, but sadly, the quality isn't there (anymore/yet).

4-3-3 can be very effective, but it's so difficult to play just one striker up front, since the defense can double-team him.
Moving the center midfielder up to support him on offense leaves vulnerable gaps on midfield unless you move up your fullbacks.

All of this requires incredible organization and proper communication, which a lot of teams lack because of the different nationalities on the field.
Ajax' championship team of 1995 had nine Dutchmen, one Finn, and one Nigerian.

	17-09-2003 18:24									#57
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And what a bunch of players as well, if you look at what they went on to do... amazing.

	17-09-2003 18:29									#58
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Yes, too bad they were lured away by big clubs with large sums of money. They were all so young and could have won many more championships as a team.

It's a shame that the Dutch league is so crap =\

	17-09-2003 18:37									#59
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I imagine that's a danger with the current Ajax team... well it's already starting to happen isn't it.

The French league has the same problem I think.

	17-09-2003 18:43									#60
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Yea, Chivu and Van der Meijde left for the Serie A. There was also some speculation on Trabelsi leaving, which is why Ajax purchased Grygera, but fortunately he's still here, especially because Grygera is injured right now.

Yes, the French league is losing appeal too. It was considered semi-surprising that Escude signed for Ajax instead of some other French club. Hopefully he'll learn Dutch quickly.