30-08-2003 02:27									#31
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Why not call it Hiawatha ham or whatever?

	30-08-2003 02:28									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie There's no ham in a hamburger, and it does not come from Hamburg...

Yes it was. The Hamburger is named after the town of Hamburg....in the US. (they even steal our town names!)

I think this is fair enough. If I go into a supermarket and see 'Parma Ham' written on a packet I bloody well expect it to be Parma Ham! If it is not then the manufacturers are unfairly trading on the reputation of a completely different product, which they do not own.

	30-08-2003 02:30									#33
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quote: And please don't tell us Americans what we do and don't have a "real sense" of or "understand" anymore, it's a stupid argument that holds no weight and I am tired of hearing Old Europe keep telling us this... We are like an ignorant teenager, but did you ever listen? Doubt it, and the more that you continue to say stuff like that the more it hurts...

Sure. But please understand that I meant no offence

Asmodean

	30-08-2003 02:37									#34
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No, I know you didn't, but I am getting tired of hearing it. I don't say "You Europeans are just too old and don't understand what American Nationality is..." because it adds nothing to the argument, and if I keep saying it, and it bugs you a little at first, I am sure it will eventually drive you nuts...

So. What if whoever makes the Parma Ham in the US makes it in a town called Parma?... I can understand if there is one manufacturer of Parma Ham in ? wherever? it comes from to be made at this, but should be an issue between that manufacturer and the one in the US not between states...

Saying it can't be called something, because it doesn't come from a certain place, is silly... If I were French I would make a wine and call it Napa Valley Finest Wine, and see what happens

Oh, I looked up Parma ham, I'll have to try it. I always make sure that all my prosciutto comes from Italy, I have had some pretty nasty crap from England.

	30-08-2003 02:38									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph The worst case of label fraud is of course calling a brand of American beer Budweiser. The only true Budweiser comes of course from Ceske Budeovice (Budweis) in the Czech Republic and is actually beer and not bottled piss like the American fake.

This is another slam dunk. AB started brewing and selling it's Budweiser beer (because the founder was from Budweis when it was still part of Austria) in the 1880's and 120 years latter someone wants to sue them for the brand name. Sorry, but you are 120 years to late. Everyone with any legal sense knows you have to defend a label or the the copy right ceases to exist.

120 years of not defending it is PLENTY of time for anyone other the AB to give up their claims.

	30-08-2003 02:40									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Japher So. What if whoever makes the Parma Ham in the US makes it in a town called Parma?

By that reasoning you shouldn't have a problem with people in Ireland opening a Hamburger place called MacDonalds....

	30-08-2003 02:40									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Yes it was. The Hamburger is named after the town of Hamburg....in the US. (they even steal our town names!) I think this is fair enough. If I go into a supermarket and see 'Parma Ham' written on a packet I bloody well expect it to be Parma Ham! If it is not then the manufacturers are unfairly trading on the reputation of a completely different product, which they do not own.

They've been locally making and selling it for hundred(s) of years. It's to late. You've lost all claims through centuries of inaction. Now, find something else to cry about.

	30-08-2003 02:42									#38
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quote: By that reasoning you shouldn't have a problem with people in Ireland opening a Hamburger place called MacDonalds....

I wouldn't, but I can't say as much for the crazy nut-jobs that run McDonalds and their team of overpaid attorney's

	30-08-2003 02:43									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh By that reasoning you shouldn't have a problem with people in Ireland opening a Hamburger place called MacDonalds....

Do you not understand English? A copy right must be continually enforced. McDonald's has enforced it's copy right while Italian government hasn't enforced any rights to the term Parma. Heck, I can show you locally produced ham from the US which has been selling Parma Ham continuesly for at least 100 years. I bet if we look we can even find a producer who is older then the Italian state.

The truth is things like Parma ham are no longer brands they are common names to styles of food and nothing more.

	30-08-2003 02:46									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin They've been locally making and selling it for hundred(s) of years. It's to late. You've lost all claims through centuries of inaction. Now, find something else to cry about.

That is bullshit - the US has not been making 'Parma Ham' for hundreds of years.

And anyway, what difference does that make? I would not be able to sell cut glass as 'diamonds' because it would be fraud. Selling cheap ham from Canada as 'Parma Ham' is also fraud.

	30-08-2003 02:46									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Japher but should be an issue between that manufacturer and the one in the US not between states...

Makes sense. But ultimately not what the EU want. We'll have to see where it leads. My bet is that it get's watered down, but with more concessions made by the U.S. than by Europe. Why? 'Cause this is an issue that we care more about than the U.S.

Asmodean

	30-08-2003 02:46									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Yes it was. The Hamburger is named after the town of Hamburg....in the US. (they even steal our town names!)

Josh, the people who named these towns often named their new towns for the places they lived in Europe. I suppose decendents who stayed in Europe somehow have more right to common cultural heritage then people who brought it to the new world?

	30-08-2003 02:50									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I suppose decendents who stayed in Europe somehow have more right to common cultural heritage then people who brought it to the new world?

Absolutely

Traitors and deserters the lot of them....

	30-08-2003 02:50									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh That is bullshit - the US has not been making 'Parma Ham' for hundreds of years. And anyway, what difference does that make? I would not be able to sell cut glass as 'diamonds' because it would be fraud. Selling cheap ham from Canada as 'Parma Ham' is also fraud.

Why do you think the Clocal producer won in Canadian court? It's becuase he could show he made Parma style ham for so long. It's not a fake because we are taking about a style of preparing food and no longer about a region where the food is prepared. The copy right hasn't been defended for hundreds of years and now the term has entered the venacular. It is no longer a brand no matter how much you wish it was.

The EU's attempts to recover these terms is no more valid then if MExico attempted to copy right the term Burrito or if Japan tried to copy right the term Sushi. They are now common words used in the English language and no one has claim upon them.

	30-08-2003 02:51									#45
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quote: I suppose decendents who stayed in Europe somehow have more right to common cultural heritage then people who brought it to the new world?

But it was the American Hamburg culture that made the burger, not the German one (or whatever it was back then)...

quote: Makes sense. But ultimately not what the EU want.

The EU can't just start making new laws out of thin air and expect that the US will apply by them or honor them. If they want anything they will learn to compromise.

	30-08-2003 02:56									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The EU's attempts to recover these terms is no more valid then if MExico attempted to copy right the term Burrito or if Japan tried to copy right the term Sushi. They are now common words used in the English language and no one has claim upon them.

That is not the same at all. The name of the product 'Parma Ham' is saying that it comes from Parma, whereas 'sushi' is just a general description for a type of food.

I have no objection to them using the word 'ham', but they should build up their own reputation rather than trading on the reputation of others. They can sell 'Calgary Ham' or whatever.

	30-08-2003 02:59									#47
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How can one care! Besides I think the people of e.g. canada give a rats ass if their parma comes from italy or not. The EU first should conduct a survey wether this is really something people in other countries are worried about. If 60% of the canadians react with shock to the fact that "their" parma is not of italian origin, I can support this, but I believe they simply dont care enough to make this a global issue.

Plus, I think there are more pressing matters than this.

	30-08-2003 03:06									#48
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quote: If they want anything they will learn to compromise.

Like in "either-you-are-with-us-..."

	30-08-2003 03:07									#49
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quote: The name of the product 'Parma Ham' is saying that it comes from Parma

Parma ham can come from the states. No problem.

So there.

	30-08-2003 03:08									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh That is not the same at all. The name of the product 'Parma Ham' is saying that it comes from Parma, whereas 'sushi' is just a general description for a type of food.

You don't get it do you? The local producers have been using that phrase to describe a style of preparing food not the region from which the food came from. No one believed that the "Parma ham" they bought at the local meat company was came from Parma, Italy (especially since it had a big fat label which said made in Canada on it). What they are buying is Parma style ham which was locally made and locally produced here for centuries.

The phrases have entered the common language and haven't been legally defended at any time before the last decade and the local people have been using these phrases since the beginning of colonization. It's to lat!e You are pissing in the wind. The phrase no longer means ham made in Parma it means ham cooked in the style prefered in Parma. That's it. It's just a recipe for food and nothing more.

	30-08-2003 03:08									#51
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I think I will start boycotting all American foods.....


....wait a minute, there are no American foods worth eating anyway!

	30-08-2003 03:09									#52
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In principle, I think the new world using the old world brands is infringement, even after 150 years, because it was infringement in the first place and there were no way for the original brand owner to find out that someone else used their name on the other side of the world.

But then you can always consider the meaning of these words - are they a brand or a type of product? I bet there are over a hundred brands that have become the name of a group of similar products.

Vespa
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Walkman
PC

	30-08-2003 03:18									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh That is not the same at all. The name of the product 'Parma Ham' is saying that it comes from Parma, whereas 'sushi' is just a general description for a type of food.

I'm sorry my friend but this is simply not true. Saying someing is "Parma ham" is like saying something is "southern fried chicken". In both cases we are taking about a style of preparing food not where the food comes from. The EU is just attempting to lie so it can make more money. It is shameful.

	30-08-2003 03:19									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The truth is things like Parma ham are no longer brands they are common names to styles of food and nothing more.

This is the point; they are not brands, they became common names thanks to their continuous quality over time and their origin which remains the same all over the years. The problem of protecting these products made in a limited area is not new, and began to find a solution about 100 years ago when we created the concept of *appellation d'origine controlée*. You enjoy it only if your product is locally made with strictly defined products according strictly defined processes. These AOC do not belong to the government nor to the producers; they cannot be sold. Any comparison with brands is irrelevant.

You have to consider that this concept is already accepted for many products, and that we are discussing only of a few additions.

You have also to accept that the land and the climate are of the utmost importance for the quality of certain products. They have to be protected specially because they are not mass producted, and their producers could not compete, marketing wise, with industrial productions.

	30-08-2003 03:24									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Japher If I were French I would make a wine and call it Napa Valley Finest Wine, and see what happens

Check, you could be surprised ...

	30-08-2003 03:28									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin This is another slam dunk. AB started brewing and selling it's Budweiser beer (because the founder was from Budweis when it was still part of Austria) in the 1880's and 120 years latter someone wants to sue them for the brand name. Sorry, but you are 120 years to late. Everyone with any legal sense knows you have to defend a label or the the copy right ceases to exist. 120 years of not defending it is PLENTY of time for anyone other the AB to give up their claims.

You can call your piss all you want, anyone who knows what beer is smells the difference for 100 meters anyway.

	30-08-2003 03:29									#57
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When someone goes to a Chinese restaurant and orders "Mongolian Beef" Or "Szechuan Chicken" no one in there right mind honestly expects the beef to come from Mongolia or the Chicken to come from Szechuan. Instead we are talking about a recipe for cooking food. This recipe has entered the common language and we all refer to it as Mongolian Beef or Szechuan Chicken. It is the exact same thing with Champagne or with Parma ham.

The best thing I can say for the EU's trade office is that they are being money grubbing liars and hypocrates.

	30-08-2003 03:33									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh I think I will start boycotting all American foods..... ....wait a minute, there are no American foods worth eating anyway!

I keep hearing Frenchmen mumble about this but all the US fast food companies keep having record years in Europe.

	30-08-2003 03:40									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The best thing I can say for the EU's trade office is that they are being money grubbing liars and hypocrates.

There is nothing wrong in your not having enough taste to appreciate the difference between a parma ham from parma, and a parma ham for Chicago. You will even be happier with the later because it is a lot cheaper. But you can admit that some people make the difference and dont want to be misled by tags deliberately and purposely misleading. And they are purposely and deliberately misleading, otherwise why would their producers be so inclined to use misleading names?

	30-08-2003 03:42									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph You can call your piss all you want, anyone who knows what beer is smells the difference for 100 meters anyway.

I always hear the same pissing, whining, and moaning from Euros but in the end the American version sales 1000 times more bottles then the Euro version.