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DanielXY
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Germany
Dec 2002
time: 05:30
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So do the following occupations define you as a sociopath?
- Mafia-Member
- Gangster (the usuall type you see on the street)
- Terrorist
- Freedom-Fighter (the type which goes against military targets)
- Mini-Rebel (wearing offensive T-Shirts and the like)
- Politician
Any of them?
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Elok
Yes, I know ubermensch is literally "over-man." It's just that it sounds like a factory supervisor when I say that.
And I don't think it's that big of a distortion. What was his chief concern? That the rules of society be used to confine and hold back the great men who were ostensibly above them. Why were they above them? They just were. If you're a sufficiently special person, the rules of others do not apply to you. Normal humans are like beasts compared to you. You are a force of nature as it should be, taking by merit of dominance whatever you wish to be yours. So from a societal point of view, Zarathustra is nothing more or less than an unusually gifted and tactless sociopath.
But this is a bit early in the thread to be threadjacking. |
A sociopath in effect has no conscience at all of his action. Zarathustra's vision of an overman has a conscience. when he says that man is a bridge between overmna and beats, he is specifically saying man is not a beast: the creation of good and bad, and even more, of good and evil force man to come to fgrips with himself, to enslave and break oneself yes, but also to gain a vision for things beyond animal urges.
For Nietszche for example, Jesus is an incredible man: here is a carpenter's son who rceate a brand new moral code..and that is what Neitszche look for in an overman, a creative being (which explain the camel, to lion, to child speech). How much did the creation of Christianity destroy, sweep aside? how many ancient moral codes and their believers were overturned, annahilated? And all that with the creation of Chrsitianity, which is the thing, to create is also to destroy: every great creation means and end to something, which is why he feels the creator can not afford pity. if yu pity what is, how can you gather the strength to destroy it and oevrthrow it when you create the new?
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Elok
That's a nice interpretation, but it doesn't chime with what I've read of his works. The "magnificent blond beast" overcoming all that stands in his way, the strong over the weak; all of his sayings are more in line with the virtues of the antisocial than the enlightenment-era deistic morality you describe. If you read in between all of his gibbering self-aggrandizing poetry, Zarathustra's message is simply that he is greater than us, and therefore his concerns supercede ours. |
The blond beast may oevrcome all in its way, but it has no depth. Nietzsche wrote more than one book, in fact Zarathustra is one of his first books. Beyond Good and Evil, Geneology of Morals: these books give a far clearer picture of his aims, once one gets a handle on his style.
How do you interpret the "Camel, to Lion, to Child" passage?
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Elok
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Land of Ramen Dragons
Mar 2003
time: 00:30
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My impression was that Zarathustra was one of his last. The vague idea of the greater man remained with him for most of his life, but he only really fully developed and expressed it towards the end. That's what I read. And I know Ecce Homo was his *last* work, and that's undeniably nuckingfuts. I've read the genealogy of morals, and in fact I'm pretty sure that's where the blond beast line comes from. He has this weird literary orgasm over the idea of the "magnificent blond beast, returned from rape, slaughter, and other even more unmentionable deeds, and laughing at it all as though it were no more than a mad schoolboy's prank," or something like that. That's not a quote, but it's pretty close, and the general idea is clearly one he approves of, judging from context.
I'm afraid I don't recall the camel speech. Around where in TSZ was it? I have the Portable Nietzsche somewhere in my room, and this is as good a time as any to dig it back up.
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Elok
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Land of Ramen Dragons
Mar 2003
time: 00:30
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Nietzsche is neither an anti-semite nor a nationalist. He referred to anti-semitism as "the German disease," and railed against Christianity for "so polluting the minds of men that it is possible, two thousand years later, for a Christian to despise the jews without realizing that he is himself the ultimate jewish consequence." Which is to say, the only crime of judaism is in establishing the moral code that led to the "weakness" of Christianity, for which he holds true animosity, and crazy as he is he isn't dumb enough to think people of today have anything to do with the actions of their ancestors.
He despised, or at least would have despised, nationalism, along with any other belief that touts a large group of people as superior in combination. Men are by his reckoning stupid cattle destined to follow the ubermensch, and for them to glorify themselves as a whole would be like the apes at the zoo dressing up in hats and coats and thinking it made them human. He did have some faith in the German race("the future of our race is in the sons and daughters of prussian officers"), but he wasn't a nationalist, nor did he subscribe to the kind of social darwinism espoused by Hitler, who built a museum in lip-service to him.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:30
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The thing is, the blond beast is NOT the overman. The blond beast is man before Good and Evil.
(on timelines, he wrote Zarathustra fater his first few books that dealt with things like Wagner and tragedy, and after Dawn, but before Ecce Homo, Beyond Good and Evil, and the Geneology)
What he approves of the blond beast is its complete devotion to fulfilling its life and making ful use of its power. the thing is, the blond beast can NOT create, at most it can only destroy. And it is creation that he seeks most of all. IN a sense, the priests which he despise, the ones that he says negate life and whihs to destory this realm for a fantasy other world in which their weaknees now becomes strength do create, they create the conscience by their attemots at self-enslavement, and that is a rpe-requisite for the overman.
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DanielXY
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Germany
Dec 2002
time: 05:30
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Ok, so what about if you are in doubt if you are crazy or not?
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our_man
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Glasgow, Scotland
Oct 2000
time: 05:30
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Smiley, there are several different types of psychotic disorders, each with their own particular cause, but let's just take the most well known one, schizophrenia.
Schizophrenia is a psychotic disorder that is characterized by both positive (overt, easier to treat) symptoms such as delusions, hallucinations and thought disorder, and negative symptoms, such as social withdrawal and the 'flattened affect' (lack of emotion in speech).
The human brain is of course, very complex, so current understanding of the cause of schizophrenia and other psychotic illnesses is basic. The main theory revolves around the fact that schizophrenia can successfully be treated with drugs that increase Dopamine activity in the brain (e.g. haloperidol, clozapine). This, and other observations in post-mortems led people to the conclusion that the primary cause of psychotic disorders are a decrease of Dopamine in the mesolimbic region of the brain.
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Elok
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Land of Ramen Dragons
Mar 2003
time: 00:30
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Just as a sidenote, I'd like to dispel a myth that drives psych professors (like my mom) nuts:
Schizophrenia is NOT the same as Multiple Personality Disorder. Some schizophrenics, depending on the type they are, may hallucinate nonexistent people, animals, etc., but they do not view those hallucinations as extensions of themselves.
That aside, social withdrawal and flattened affect are also common in autistics(actually, they're two of the big symptoms), and from what I gather there may be a reason for that. Autistics have an extremely powerful visual imagination, to the point of near-photographic memory in some cases. It can be literally photographic too: normal people memorize words by remembering the words themselves, whereas autistics tend to remember the image of the page the words are written on and "read" the words off of the recalled image in their minds. I'm not quite that powerful so I can only remember scattered fragments of a page, but it's the same principle. Autism is, in a very limited sense, a low-grade and largely voluntary form of schizophrenia, by which the self-imposed constructions of your own imagination isolate you from the real world. This also explains the oversensitivity-because the senses are given less attention than in normal humans(the PC phrase is "neurotypical" but I think that sounds stupid), we have a much lower tolerance for sensory stimulation, and those senses can easily be pushed to the point of irritation in some of us. Hence I hate strong smells, loud noises, bright lights, and physical contact far more than a normal person would. It's a pretty whack-sounding theory, but it's gaining support in a few rare circles. O_M, you seem knowledgeable. Any speculation?
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30-08-2003 18:18
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