31-08-2003 20:39									#1
	Match the punishment with the crime Get a bigger avatar today!

If you were a judge and were allowed to give any punishment you wanted, what would you do for these crimes:

1) a person steals 100$ from their boss.

2) a person steals 100$ from their boss but returns the money when they get caught.

Would the punishment be different if the person stole 100,000$?

3) a person is driving home and hits another car killing the person in the other car.

Would the punishment be different if the driver were drunk?

4) a person intentionally kills their boyfriend/girlfriend because the other person was cheating on them.

Would the punishment be different if the victim were a spouse?

5) A guy gets a girl drunk and has sex with her. After the fact, she claims it was not consentual because she was drunk.

Would the punishment be different if hard drugs were involved?


6) A couple is filing for divorce. The husband is upset because his wife committed adultery. The wife admits to the adultery but says that her husband's addiction to porn drove her to it. Would you grant the divorce? If so, who would get custody of the children?

	31-08-2003 21:03									#2
	Re: Match the punishment with the crime Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: 1) a person steals 100$ from their boss.

Maybe 1- 5 years? And an order to pay $100 in restitution.

quote: 2) a person steals 100$ from their boss but returns the money when they get caught.

1-5 years

Would the punishment be different if the person stole 100,000$?

Yup, send them to jail for a long time..

quote: 3) a person is driving home and hits another car killing the person in the other car.

There is not enough information here. Do we know whose fault the collision was? Was the collision intentional? Was the person who killed the other driver engaged in reckless or agressive driving?

quote: Would the punishment be different if the driver were drunk?

Well in that case, Life in Prison W/O parole or the Death Penalty.

quote: 4) a person intentionally kills their boyfriend/girlfriend because the other person was cheating on them.

Life without parole, or the death penalty depending on circumstances.

quote: Would the punishment be different if the victim were a spouse?

Absolutely not. Everyone has the same right to be safe in their daily lives.

quote: 5) A guy gets a girl drunk and has sex with her. After the fact, she claims it was not consentual because she was drunk.

It depends. Did the girl consent to getting drunk? If some form of trickery or coercion was used to that effect, than it's rape and a penalty of 5 years or so would be appropriate. If the girl did give willful consent to becoming drunk, no penalty is appropriate.

quote: Would thee punishment be different if hard drugs were involved?

No.

quote: 6) A couple is filing for divorce. The husband is upset because his wife committed adultery. The wife admits to the adultery but says that her husband's addiction to porn drove her to it. Would you grant the divorce? If so, who would get custody of the children?

I would prefer they get marriage counseling and try to save their marriage first. If both parties really want a divorce, it should be granted. I would give joint custody, but have the father be the primary caregiver.

	31-08-2003 21:25									#3
	Put an end to popups!

In the first two cases, a fine equal to the amount stolen plus damages. Years i prison for the theft of 100 dollars to me is absurd. Obviously, the possible damages from the theft of 100,000 are much greater, so there some prison time might be in order: not that many years though, maybe 2-4, after all the money was restored and extra fines heaped on.

As for the car: if it is an accident, then it is no crime. As for driving drunk, that is careless disreard for human life, so you do have a serious felony: some level 0of manslaughter is in order.

The killing part is obviously murder: 2nd degree becuase it is a crime of passion. Whether they were married makes no difference.

On the sex, depends on the exact fact of the case: did the man purposely do something to impair the ability of the woman to be able to consent? if so, that's rape. What he used to impair her judgement matters only in how well you can make the case against the man.

As for the last one, if a couple want to divorce, that is their decision. Why is this set up with a list of crimes though?

	31-08-2003 21:34									#4
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Why is this set up with a list of crimes though?

Obviously, it is not a crime. But I thought it might be an interesting judicial case, since many judges have to deal with divorces.

	31-08-2003 21:38									#5
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Hey Shi,

Up to five years for minor theft? Are you, by any chance, a prison entrepreneur with hopes for an even better future?

Oh, and if ANY part of a marriage wants to trash it, of course they should be able to right now, no questions asked. And as for custody of children, it wouldn't matter much in the case who commited adultery, although the porn obsession thing might if it's a handicap on par with alcoholism etc.

	31-08-2003 22:22									#6
	Re: Match the punishment with the crime Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat If you were a judge and were allowed to give any punishment you wanted, what would you do for these crimes: 1) a person steals 100$ from their boss.

A couple of days in jail, or preferably, 48 hours over weekends on county road crews or other "unfun" but useful communinity service, plus fine of say 500, plus restitution.

quote: 2) a person steals 100$ from their boss but returns the money when they get caught.

When caught by the boss? or by the police? If the first, probably not prosecutable as theft, due to difficulty in proving intent to permanently deprive the victim of the money (unauthorized borrowing and return aren't theft, and D argues that they were going to return the money anyway and that having it at the time confronted was evidence of that blah blah blah). If returned when caught by the cops, then scratch the restitution and knock off half the community service, plus reduce the fine by 100 as well.

Long prison sentences just aren't economical - we'd need to hugely increase our prison capacity and can't afford it.

quote: Would the punishment be different if the person stole 100,000$?

It would depend on the circumstances (big thefts are often more civil dispute / accounting games or fraud and not outright larceny or robbery, so there's more of a range of possibilities here). In the absense of anything especially mitigating, I'd say 20 years or so, a la bank robbery.

quote: 3) a person is driving home and hits another car killing the person in the other car. Would the punishment be different if the driver were drunk?

First case, depends on the degree of negligence or recklessness involved, road conditions, and other facts of the case.

Second case, drunk driving is a deliberate act of reckless disregard, but it'd still depend on the degree of intoxication and the degree of contribution to the cause of the collision - if someone backs rapidly out of a driveway, from behind a van, at night on a poorly lit street, right into your path, being drunk is unacceptable, but not the major contributor to the resulting crash.

Depending on the degree of actual fault and other circumstances, plus priors, punishment could range from a fine, short jail sentence, suspension of license, and a very long probationary period on the license plus suspended prison time, out to 25 to life in cases of extreme recklessness or disregard.

quote: 4) a person intentionally kills their boyfriend/girlfriend because the other person was cheating on them. Would the punishment be different if the victim were a spouse?

No. Sentence depends on circumstances, timing and manner of killing, could range from 15 years minimum to DP.

quote: 5) A guy gets a girl drunk and has sex with her. After the fact, she claims it was not consentual because she was drunk. Would the punishment be different if hard drugs were involved?

If there was consent in use of the drugs, no. In either case, without forensic evidence, this is a tough one to prove, as it gets largely down to the victim's word against the perpetrator's.

If he drugged her without her knowledge or consent, 30 years to life if no priors and no proof that the drugging was intended to facilitate rape, life without parole if it is provable that there was intent to facilitate rape.

quote: 6) A couple is filing for divorce. The husband is upset because his wife committed adultery. The wife admits to the adultery but says that her husband's addiction to porn drove her to it. Would you grant the divorce? If so, who would get custody of the children?

The state has no business trying divorce cases for cause. The divorce should be automatic. Custody would depend on the total circumstances of the two parents, the age and number of the kids, and their capacity to express preference.

	31-08-2003 22:30									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

With regards to the thread title, you have to take into account the probability that the criminal is caught by law enforcers. If it is low, ceteris paribus make a longer sentence.

	31-08-2003 22:39									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

"Up to five years for minor theft? Are you, by any chance, a prison entrepreneur with hopes for an even better future?"

This "minor theft" adds up. I don't have statstics on hand, but people stealing from their workplace leads to vast amounts of losses from business every year, causing some small businesses to close, and also further adding on to costs by making businesses invest in security to prevent theft.

	31-08-2003 22:43									#9
	Re: Match the punishment with the crime Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat 1) a person steals 100$ from their boss.

$100 plus damages fine. $10 for wasting the courts' time.

quote: 2) a person steals 100$ from their boss but returns the money when they get caught.

Charge their boss $10 for filing the suit. The courts are already overloaded enough as it is, and if I can give ANY punishment, you better as hell believe I will

quote: Would the punishment be different if the person stole 100,000$?

Return the money + damages if possible and 5 years in jail.

quote: 3) a person is driving home and hits another car killing the person in the other car.

There's not enough details. Was it wreckless driving? Was it intentional?

quote: Would the punishment be different if the driver were drunk?

30+ years, or life.

quote: 4) a person intentionally kills their boyfriend/girlfriend because the other person was cheating on them.

30+ years. Someone cheating on you doesn't give you a right to kill them.

quote: Would the punishment be different if the victim were a spouse?

No.

quote: 5) A guy gets a girl drunk and has sex with her. After the fact, she claims it was not consentual because she was drunk.

Did she consent to the drink? If she did, then no punishment for the guy. If the guy put rape drugs in her drink, or forced her in any point along the process, then prison starting with 1 year and add more based on when and how much force he used.

quote: Would the punishment be different if hard drugs were involved?

The gal took them, then ****ed? If she consented to the hard drugs, then the guy gets off easy.

quote: 6) A couple is filing for divorce. The husband is upset because his wife committed adultery. The wife admits to the adultery but says that her husband's addiction to porn drove her to it. Would you grant the divorce? If so, who would get custody of the children?

Marriage counseling. If they won't take it or it isn't helping, divorce with the husband getting custody. (The husband, you see, only imagined getting ****ed by other babes (pr0n addiction). The woman actually did get ****ed by other dudes.)

EDIT: Or, whoever is "better" for the children. For example, if the husband was a multiple-times sex offender before getting married, the wife would probably get them. Once again, a lack of detail

	31-08-2003 22:44									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Shi,

If you imprisonate everybody who commits minor theft for years otherwise be spent on working or educating oneself, that would be pretty bad for business as well.

	31-08-2003 22:46									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

1) execution
2) execution
3) execution, though possibly released should the accident be deemed humerous.
4) execution, though possibly released should the partner be deemed unattractive.
5) execution for both parties involved
6) execution for all parties involved, including those within a 6 mile radius.

	31-08-2003 22:56									#12
	Re: Match the punishment with the crime Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat 3) a person is driving home and hits another car killing the person in the other car.

For clarification, it is completely accidental, not intentional in any way.

	31-08-2003 22:57									#13
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Bumpercars!

	31-08-2003 22:58									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If the driver was not at fault for the accident, then of course he can't be punished. If the deceased was at fault, then the person who hit the other person should be able to recover the money needed for car repairs from the deceased's estate.

	31-08-2003 22:59									#15
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How much does a bullet and a bucket of soapy water cost compared to all that time in prison?

	31-08-2003 23:00									#16
	Re: Re: Match the punishment with the crime Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell (The husband, you see, only imagined getting ****ed by other babes (pr0n addiction). The woman actually did get ****ed by other dudes.)

Interesting. I'd probably look at it the other way. The wife should probably get the kids, because the porn addiction would be much more of a threat to the kids' upbringing than the adultery. The dad's porn addiction would seriously impede his ability to raise the kids in a healthy way.

	31-08-2003 23:02									#17
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To be honest everyone in the town is better off dead.

	31-08-2003 23:15									#18
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The first two should not be punished by imprisonment, no matter how much money was involved. It was not a crime against a person, so it seems crazy that a loss of something material should incur the same penalty as a violent action against a person (even if the duration of the sentence is longer, the method is the same).

Number 3 is an awkward one. Not sure on that one.

4 is second degree murder, whether the couple are married or not. Definitely serious time in prison; your partner sleeping with someone else may break a marriage contract, so be officially illegal to some twisted minds...but you still cant get away with killing them- unfortunately.

I do not think there should be any legal consequences for 5. if the girl was stupid enough to drink that much then you can hardly blame the guy for taking advantage. With drugs...even so, its only rape. Really don't understand why the punishments for this are so harsh.

	31-08-2003 23:21									#19
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After all, if the *****es give you the opportunity, why not take it, right?

	31-08-2003 23:23									#20
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On a serious note, I have friends who have been raped and sexually assaulted and it can ruin lives.

Still rehabilitation to avoid repeat offenses seems to be the best option, IMO.

	31-08-2003 23:45									#21
	Re: Match the punishment with the crime Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat 1) a person steals 100$ from their boss.

Make him return it. The boss has the power to fire him if he wants, and the crime would be put on record for future employers to see.

quote: 2) a person steals 100$ from their boss but returns the money when they get caught.

Same as above.

quote: Would the punishment be different if the person stole 100,000$?

No.

quote: 3) a person is driving home and hits another car killing the person in the other car.

He is never allowed to drive a vehicle again.

quote: Would the punishment be different if the driver were drunk?

Rehab.

quote: 4) a person intentionally kills their boyfriend/girlfriend because the other person was cheating on them.

Jail time. Of course, my ideal jail system would not be anything at all like the ones we have. For one thing, no abstract dead lines such as 10 years or whatever. They would stay there indefinately untill they are rehabilitated. It also wouldn't be a "lock 'em up" mentality, it would be a seperate society - not torture or punishment.

quote: Would the punishment be different if the victim were a spouse?

No.

quote: 5) A guy gets a girl drunk and has sex with her. After the fact, she claims it was not consentual because she was drunk.

Councilling/probation for the guy, rehab for the girl.

quote: Would the punishment be different if hard drugs were involved?

Nope.

quote: 6) A couple is filing for divorce. The husband is upset because his wife committed adultery. The wife admits to the adultery but says that her husband's addiction to porn drove her to it. Would you grant the divorce? If so, who would get custody of the children?

Councilling for the both of them. As for the technicalities go; none of my buisness, they can sort it out themselves - it'll be a part of their councilling.

	01-09-2003 00:15									#22
	Re: Match the punishment with the crime Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: 1) a person steals 100$ from their boss. 2) a person steals 100$ from their boss but returns the money when they get caught.

a fine will do. prison on no account. 1) & 2) shouldn´t be treated differently. as soon the person is caught, he has to pay back the money anyway. maybe 1) will more likely lose his job tan 2), but that´s all.

quote: Would the punishment be different if the person stole 100,000$?

yep, the amount matters.

quote: 3) a person is driving home and hits another car killing the person in the other car.

depends. no intention and culpable negligence, no punishment.

quote: Would the punishment be different if the driver were drunk?

since driving drunk is at least culpable negligence, yes.

quote: 4) a person intentionally kills their boyfriend/girlfriend because the other person was cheating on them.

5 years - life, depends.

quote: Would the punishment be different if the victim were a spouse?

no idea what a spouse is, but probably not.

quote: 5) A guy gets a girl drunk and has sex with her. After the fact, she claims it was not consentual because she was drunk.

depends. if he forced or cheated her getting drunk, it´s rape.
if the girl got herself drunk or was drunk as usual, no punishment.

quote: Would the punishment be different if hard drugs were involved?

yes. an additional punishment for owning and spreading illegal drugs.
if he cheats or forces her taking these drugs in order to rape her, it would be a very serious crime.

quote: 6) A couple is filing for divorce. The husband is upset because his wife committed adultery. The wife admits to the adultery but says that her husband's addiction to porn drove her to it. Would you grant the divorce? If so, who would get custody of the children?

depends what´s better for the children. if possible both should get custody.

quote: I do not think there should be any legal consequences for 5. if the girl was stupid enough to drink that much then you can hardly blame the guy for taking advantage. With drugs...even so, its only rape. Really don't understand why the punishments for this are so harsh.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...ght=prison+rape

	01-09-2003 00:19									#23
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Ok, I accept maybe some kind of punishment is in order for situation number 5. It can just get tricky as to what actually constitutes rape. You have to make some kind of distinction between a brutal attack that severely damages a person (mentally or physically) and someone just not really being in the mood or regretting it later or something.

	01-09-2003 21:41									#24
	Re: Match the punishment with the crime Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat 1) a person steals 100$ from their boss.

Fine of ~$500

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat 2) a person steals 100$ from their boss but returns the money when they get caught.

If the boss wants to press charges, a fine of an extra $100.

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Would the punishment be different if the person stole 100,000$?

Yep, it would involve a lot more money. Depends how it was stolen, presuming some form of fraund (no-one got hurt, no breaking and entering) then I'd probably say pay the money back and 200 odd hours of community service.

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat 3) a person is driving home and hits another car killing the person in the other car.

If it's their fault, then ban them from driving, and fine them for dangerous driving. If it's intentional, then vehicular manslaughter. If it's just an accident, say due to road conditions, then send them to counselling, they'll need it after that.

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Would the punishment be different if the driver were drunk?

Yes, then it would automatically be dangerous driving, possibly lower vehicular manslaughter (their concious actions caused the death, but they did not intend to kill them).

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat 4) a person intentionally kills their boyfriend/girlfriend because the other person was cheating on them.

Depends, if it's at the time they find out, as a crime of passion, then manslaughter and maybe 15 years jailtime. If it's premeditated, or not done while considered to be temporarily insane, then same as murder, either life inprisonment or DP.

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Would the punishment be different if the victim were a spouse?

No, but it could be more likely that there is a more important relationship there, thus may be more likely to be temporarily insane (be more upset if spouse cheated than just someone you happen to be dating). But same as above. If its a crime of passion and coutns for temporary insanity, then manslaughter, if not, then murder.

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat 5) A guy gets a girl drunk and has sex with her. After the fact, she claims it was not consentual because she was drunk.

Consenting to sex is an act. If she consented, it's not rape. However forcing her to take alcohol against her will is aserious crime. If he's spiking her drink, he's committing a serious crime, and should be charged, but I don't think it classes as rape. If they just happen to be getting drunk, then there is no crime, and the girl needs to learn not to drink when she may act like that.

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Would the punishment be different if hard drugs were involved?

Exactly the same as above, with the added punishment for dealing in illegal substances.

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat 6) A couple is filing for divorce. The husband is upset because his wife committed adultery. The wife admits to the adultery but says that her husband's addiction to porn drove her to it. Would you grant the divorce? If so, who would get custody of the children?

Like MtG said, it's whoever can look after them best. The divorce should be granted, as that isn't the business of the state. I would probably favour the husbands side, since he did not actually break the marriage contract, whereas the wife did, but neither is totally to blame. IMHO it is something that happens occasionally, one gets obsessed with something, and the other looses interest. Splitting assets depends on their marriage contract.

	02-09-2003 15:13									#25
	Re: Re: Match the punishment with the crime Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Osweld Jail time. Of course, my ideal jail system would not be anything at all like the ones we have. For one thing, no abstract dead lines such as 10 years or whatever. They would stay there indefinately untill they are rehabilitated. It also wouldn't be a "lock 'em up" mentality, it would be a seperate society - not torture or punishment.

I like that idea, putting the emphasis on rehab rather than punishment.

quote: Originally posted by oedo no idea what a spouse is, but probably not.

A married partner, a husband or wife.

quote: Originally posted by oedo depends. if he forced or cheated her getting drunk, it´s rape. if the girl got herself drunk or was drunk as usual, no punishment. if he cheats or forces her taking these drugs in order to rape her, it would be a very serious crime.

More serious than with alcohol? Or is it just more serious because of the extra charges for illegal substances?

With the drink driving one, does it make it a worse punishment because of the death? Surely whether or not the person is injured or dies is a matter of chance, rather than the fault of the driver? I mean it is his fault, but no more than if he hit them and the other person did not die.

	02-09-2003 15:26									#26
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

1) a person steals 100$ from their boss.

If it's a 1st offence: Fine to repay money + costs.
If it's to pay for drugs: Put them on a rehab program.
Serial offence: Councilling program.

2) a person steals 100$ from their boss but returns the money when they get caught.

Too late. Same as above.

Would the punishment be different if the person stole 100,000$?

Yep. Jail time for that. $100 is petty crime, $100,000 is a major fraud.

3) a person is driving home and hits another car killing the person in the other car.

Deliberate murder using the car: Life inprisonment
Total accident due to car failure: No punishment
Something in between, a punishment in between.

Would the punishment be different if the driver were drunk?

Yes, to me that's the same as intentional murder with the car. Life inprisonment no matter whether it was intentional or not.

4) a person intentionally kills their boyfriend/girlfriend because the other person was cheating on them.

Life imprisonment

Would the punishment be different if the victim were a spouse?

Of course not.

5) A guy gets a girl drunk and has sex with her. After the fact, she claims it was not consentual because she was drunk.

He deliberately spikes her drinks: It's rape, 5-10 years
She gets drunk on her own: Her responsibility, no punishment.

Would the punishment be different if hard drugs were involved?

Same.

6) A couple is filing for divorce. The husband is upset because his wife committed adultery. The wife admits to the adultery but says that her husband's addiction to porn drove her to it. Would you grant the divorce? If so, who would get custody of the children?

Yes grant the divorce. Who gets the kids depends on the individual circumstances.


Doing this makes you realise how silly it is to have mandatory sentences, so much of these punishments would depend on the situation involved.

	02-09-2003 15:40									#27
	Re: Match the punishment with the crime Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat If you were a judge and were allowed to give any punishment you wanted, what would you do for these crimes: 1) a person steals 100$ from their boss.

Repay money, fine of $500 or 100 hours community service.

quote: 2) a person steals 100$ from their boss but returns the money when they get caught. Would the punishment be different if the person stole 100,000$?

See above. For 100k, fine would be $500k or 3 years prison.

quote: 3) a person is driving home and hits another car killing the person in the other car. Would the punishment be different if the driver were drunk?

If accidental (ie no speeding, dangerous driving etc but say due to mechanical failure), no punishment. Drunk drivers would be involuntary manslaughter imo (they don't set out to kill) so 7 years prison time.

quote: 4) a person intentionally kills their boyfriend/girlfriend because the other person was cheating on them. Would the punishment be different if the victim were a spouse?

Life, read 20 years without parole.

quote: 5) A guy gets a girl drunk and has sex with her. After the fact, she claims it was not consentual because she was drunk. Would the punishment be different if hard drugs were involved?

Depends if she took the alcohol/drugs voluntarily. Also in what kind of state she was when the act happened (taking advantage of someone who is passed out is different than going home with someone after you got drunk at a party). If voluntarily, no fine. Otherwise, rape, 10 years.

quote: 6) A couple is filing for divorce. The husband is upset because his wife committed adultery. The wife admits to the adultery but says that her husband's addiction to porn drove her to it. Would you grant the divorce? If so, who would get custody of the children?

Always grant divorce, not granting divorce would be impeding on personal liberties imo. As for kids, depends on other circumstances as well, but in theory I'd let the kids choose.

	02-09-2003 15:40									#28
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Doing this makes you realise how silly it is to have mandatory sentences, so much of these punishments would depend on the situation involved.

But then there would be the problem of individual judges having too much power. What sentance you get could depend on which judge you get, and what mood their in - it's a lottery. With mandatory sentances you have an accountable (since it's elected) body giving guidelines.

I agree with you, and I don't like mandatory sentances, but I don't know how to get over the problem of having too much power with the judges. Maybe a panel of judges for each case? Also, a single person may be swayed more by the perceived nastiess of a crime, and thus overreact. I do think they need more leeway, but judges are human, and so can be swayed by rguments that appeal to their emotions. It is quite a dilemma IMHO, I just wish we didn't have Blunkett deciding it.

	02-09-2003 15:44									#29
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	02-09-2003 15:56									#30
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You think that's bad? A couple of hundred years ago all those things would have been punished (in this country) by hanging unless you could get someone to sponsor you so that you could get transported to Australia for life instead.