04-11-2003 19:41									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Beta Guess we better talk about the FP and a palace jump. I was assuming the capitol stays put. The city site discussion was kind of built around that premise. If it changes - and I recall an earlier proposal to that effect, then we better do our thinking real quick.

Thats my point.

Generally how I have seen a jump done is you build an FP near your palace so your production is not eaten up by corruption. Then you disband the palace city and it automatically "jumps" to another city.

There is a calculation of where it goes in the strategy threads but the main thing is it has to have a high native civ population. (We need lots of monkeys in it)

There is a minor correction for nearby cities.

Now we can try and do it the old fashioned way but it takes forever to build an FP in a remote corrupt city.

Ill try and find the thread.

	04-11-2003 19:43									#62
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Here it is, it was on the previous page:

Palace Jump

	05-11-2003 00:41									#63
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Palace jumping does not go well with RCP, as you lose all the benefits of RCP once your palace moved. So I'm more in favour of getting a strong core with RCP and then building the FP a bit farther, maybe rushed by a leader if we ever get one...

So if we plan to jump our palace, we better make sure it's worth it, and I'm not really sure about this.

--Kon--

	05-11-2003 00:47									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Konquest02 Palace jumping does not go well with RCP, as you lose all the benefits of RCP once your palace moved. So I'm more in favour of getting a strong core with RCP and then building the FP a bit farther, maybe rushed by a leader if we ever get one... So if we plan to jump our palace, we better make sure it's worth it, and I'm not really sure about this. --Kon--

Fair enough. And you are right about RCP, the only thing that would make it better is if the new core was better than the old core. We just need to know what everyone is thinking since our next settler will be done in 3 to 4 turns.

	09-11-2003 20:43									#65
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OK, we get 2 settlers in the next two turns. We've got one going at PC 889. Where should we send the other one...? North? In the southern branch of our core ring? Far North?

Any news form the border negociations, con?

--Kon--

	10-11-2003 06:51									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Konquest02 OK, we get 2 settlers in the next two turns. We've got one going at PC 889. Where should we send the other one...? North? In the southern branch of our core ring? Far North?

I say north or far north.

I think we leave the two southern core ring cities until we have claimed some land.

	10-11-2003 09:38									#67
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Hot_Enamel starts jumping up and down on his tree branch chanting…

Core, Core, Core, Core, Core, Core ….

First Settler Goes 8,8,9
2nd Settler Goes south 2,1,1,1 (The coastal Hill in Tundra)

And I would like the next two settlers to finish off the core at 2,2,2 and 2,3,3,3


COD has jungle to the south. If they want to expand our way, they will be doing like Poly in the ISDG, and building tight cities with plenty of workers to cut the jungle.

Python must be even further North.

We have nothing to fear from them. If they make a bold claim for our land, we can easily out produce them with a horseman army. (Assuming we have horses). While they will be struggling to even put a road through the jungle to connect their city. (They are not industrious)

BTW, once Lit is finished (I assume one of them will be doing Map Making), we need to race up the wheel, HBR tree.

	10-11-2003 10:29									#68
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I gotta agree with H_E on this one.

Core needs to come first and after this initial rush its almost done.


No word on border negotiations but Im back so Ill get ahold of Arrian.

Did there settler do anything up north near the spice?

	10-11-2003 18:16									#69
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I said north because I'm wondering if we'll get more production from a corrupted city or a city in the tundra that won't grow very fast...

We need to do a test, but I agree that we need to finish the core before to do anything else.

EDIT: I just looked at the map and those cities will have a couple of grassland for growth. Irrigate them and the problem is solved...

--Kon--

	10-11-2003 20:02									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Konquest02 EDIT: I just looked at the map and those cities will have a couple of grassland for growth. Irrigate them and the problem is solved... --Kon--

Good observation, and just remember it will be hundreds if not a thousands years until we have to worry about limited growth. In the meantime those virtually corruption proof cities are generating sheilds and commerce (taxes and science)

	10-11-2003 22:08									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Hot_Enamel starts jumping up and down on his tree branch chanting… Core, Core, Core, Core, Core, Core ….

OK. OK. This old ape gets the message. And sits down to eat a banana.

You guys all make excellent points, and thank you for the second time in as many weeks in setting me straight.

As I said earlier, I wonder where Vox would be now had they all jumped out of the tree screaming Core Core Core.

I had to laugh when GS finally saw our homeland, and started talking about how we had pop-rushed all our cities down to low pop levels. The real truth is that they were built so late that is the limit they had grown to. Workers were used to build the long road south, and settlers to put cities in far flung places.

So - now I will finally give up on this point. Settlers will do the core first. (I promise. )

And yes - irrigation of the grassland, and forestation of the tundra should set us up well down south.

	11-11-2003 02:59									#72
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Same mistake was made by Lux. Although they would argue that they had no choice because they had no Luxery or Resources

Roleplay did the same thing, although what saved them was the massive jungle between them and ND....But ultimately, grabbing so much land has also led to their downfall.



And while Vox had small 2-3 pop core cities, GS had a monster 12 pop city hidden in the fog that no-one knew about.

Last edited by Hot_Enamel on 11-11-2003 at 04:24

	13-11-2003 22:51									#73
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OK - as mentioned in MOVES, we have two settlers out next turn. One finishes the northern ring.

Teh second starts the southern ring. We have three choices - check back to H_E's map on the first page of this thread.

They are - from Primate Central:

The SW city - 2-1-1-1

The South city - 2-2-2

The SE city 2-3-3-3

The settler from either PC or Mac can make it to the northern site in two turns.

Therfore, using the settler from PC, he can make it to the SW or S city in 3 turns, and the SE in 4. That being said, the SE city has the best land for immediate use. Any thoughts?

Last edited by Beta on 13-11-2003 at 22:58

	14-11-2003 01:19									#74
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Without opening up the save and giving you precisely how I think we should do this here is generally what I would like to see:

Build the first ring from north to south.

Build the second or outer ring from north to south.

Obviously the reason Im doing that is because we get all our minimal corruption cities in first, in the inner ring.

Then the next ring which will overall have more corruption.

And we build from north to south because obviously the north has better terrain.

	14-11-2003 03:34									#75
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http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Hot_Enamel/ring45.jpg

I dont know if it really matters a lot.

Immediately on Settlement,

D (2,1,1,1)
Will only have 2 grassland tiles, until cultural expansion
Has a defensive bonus being on a hill (Good because of Barbs)

E (2,2,2)
Will only ever have 3 grassland tiles (Which will probably be irrigated anyway)
Can be settled the quickest

F (2,3,3,3)
I think will also only have 3 grassland tiles until E is settled, then it will have to share. (Unless we cut trees)
Has a defensive bonus being on a hill (Good because of Barbs)


I think either D or F, as our warriors will need the extra hill defense bonus.
I dont mind...If beta wants F, then I am fine with that.

	14-11-2003 04:02									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel (Unless we cut trees)

BLASPHEMY!!

Other than that, I'm OK with all that have been said so far...

--kon--

	14-11-2003 08:57									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Konquest02 BLASPHEMY!! Other than that, I'm OK with all that have been said so far... --kon--

You know we do need to talk and resolve the tree/jungle cutting issue sometime.

Beta is hardcore on this, and thats OK.

My feeling is we can do it BUT we HAVE to reforest elsewhere. (Eventually our tundra is a good bet.)

Same with the jungle, trying to be realistic, a city in the jungle is going nowhere, but a city in a jungle that is now a city in a forest has some possibilities, ie we cut the jungle and plant forest.

And yes I KNOW this will take a LOT of productive effort, but if we are gonna play the game, then we have to play the game.

Ok I know Im bordering on heresy here BUT we do have to talk about it and Ill go with the majority opinion with minimal whinning

	15-12-2003 05:44									#78
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Do we stick with the rings ? Or place cities where they are better suited ?

Here is a 9 tile Ring.

9 Tile Spacing


We have another settler coming on line soon.
Do we make a land grab by sending him far North ?
How far ? The southern jungle edge ? Or even further to grab some luxeries ?

	17-12-2003 08:08									#79
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I still like the 7/7.5 spacing discussed and agreed to earlier. But lets discuss until everyone feels OK about it.

With the next settler, do we want to put in a 7/7.5 ring city - or head farther north and put down one to claim the isthmus for defensive purposes - or go for the luxury. I am easy on this.

If it is a 7/7.5 distant city - it will be awhile before we get irrigation up there. (Four turns to irrigate and road, plus one turn to move, say 20-25 turns depending on where we put the city.) That being the case, the best site may be the east coast site that may be able to utilize the one grassland tile.

	18-12-2003 16:27									#80
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First Ring Plan

Second Ring Plan


Here are the choices.

7 tile ring (Tight)
8 tile ring
9 tile ring (Loose)
Screw the rings, just place the city in the best spot.


7 Tile Ring
We can squeeze in 7 cities in this ring.
3 in the North, and 4 in the southern Tundra
Only 1 city in the Tundra has a harbor, so the rest of the cities will be small and unproductive.
This is the closest to the capital, and we should see less corruption.
These cities can share tiles with our core 4 tile ring
Tight cities are also easier to defend, and are more productive in the short term.
The big downside, is that our core ring (although a 4 tile ring) is quite cramped on our tight peninsula.
Looking at the original plan, every one of these cities can reach size 12 (except baboon)
With a tile 7 2nd ring, they may have to share some of their tiles.

8 Tile Ring
We can also squeeze in 7 cities in this ring.
3 in the North, and 4 in the southern Tundra
3 cities in the Tundra have a harbor, but 2 only just.
The good one with the harbor can become quite productive.
This gives more room for our core.

9 Tile Ring
Due to the mountains, we can only squeeze 6 cities in this ring.
2 in the North, and 4 in the southern Tundra
All cities in the Tundra can have a harbor, which gives them the opportunity to be reasonably productive.(Although 1 will struggle)
These cities will have more corruption than the tighter rings.
This ring will give our core plenty of room for population growth up to size 12.

Screw the rings, just place the city in the best spot.
The other option which should be considered.

	18-12-2003 16:33									#81
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I think, that although the 7 tile spacing looks good, the city sites available in the south are terrible.
We will get 3 good cities in the north, but little else in this ring.
3 cities total

8 tile ring is a little better.
3 good Northern cities, and 1 good tundra city.
4 cities total

9 tile ring will have only 6 cities, but it is 2 good Northern Cities, and 3 Tundra cities with good harbors.
5 cities total

Thats probably the reason why I offered the 9 tile spacing.

Of course, the other option is to forget the rings.
Have 3 cities in the north @ 7 tiles
And 4 cities in the southern tundra @ 9 tiles.


My choice...at this stage...is the 9 tile spacing because we get more productive cities in total.

	18-12-2003 18:03									#82
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Hmmm - I had never seen the full impact of the 7 ring plan in the south. And 8 is not much better.

I concur H_E. Either the 9 ring plan, or abandon the concept all together past the first ring.

What do others think?

	18-12-2003 18:18									#83
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OK - now that I have looked at the save - and seen Plymouth - and what looks like a concerted effort to build south, I firmly believe that we should lay down a couple "We claim this land" cities. We have NM's to back up our claim.

The second ring cities do need to get built - especially in the north. But we can always back fill. Or at least - build the NE 9-ring city first - and then plant one or two beyond that.

It would be nice to grab one of the northern luxuries. And we cannot allow ourselves to get trapped on the peninsula that we are currently on.

Then again - you know me - - I think my early sailing days have made me a hopeless wanderer and explorer. But in this case - I do think we need to balance our strategic growth needs with our building needs.

Last edited by Beta on 19-12-2003 at 08:21

	19-12-2003 08:15									#84
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mean to hit edit - hit quote instead.

Bananas anyone???

And we do need to decide on the next city site!!!

	19-12-2003 09:00									#85
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We can move the settler 1 tile north.
That will give us 1 more turn before we have to decide

	20-12-2003 16:56									#86
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Settler was moved NORTH

We need a decision before the next turn on where to send him.

He is currently Orangutan 9,8
He can move :-
"6", and settle on the 7 tile ring
"9", and settle on the 7 tile ring
"8", and settle on the 8 tile ring
"8", and be in a position to move next turn to 8 or 9 tile ring.

	20-12-2003 16:57									#87
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At this stage, I am going to vote 8,8 and settle on the 9 tile ring.

If we have to, we can backfill onto the 7 tile ring.

	21-12-2003 08:31									#88
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I've thought a bit about it, and you convinved me about the 9 tile ring... Our big gain will be mostly down south with 4 relatively well placed cities and most of our tiles used...

--Kon--

	21-01-2004 05:37									#89
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Here are some thoughts on a northern settlement plan.




I am proposing A as a good initial base. It claims the cross-over point to the istmus to the west without being overly aggressive. I suggest it be the first city.

B is the one I really liked, but I think it would be tough to supprort - both culturally and militarily. It would also be seen as an agressive move.

C would work - and both C and A with some culture boosts could claim a luxury. C would not be as agressive, byt would require some jungle to be cleared.

D I like as a defensive strongpoint - but also as a cross-over to take irrigation to the plains to the east and ...

E, situated on the point. Again - with cultural improvements - would be a good site.

F - a natural. And would pretty much seal our hold on the cross-over.

G - another good site - but would be dependent on the plan for the sithmus.

I recommend the following order - A, F, D, C and E.

I also think we should use our exsiting settler as a negotiating point with CoD on the tech front - and say we are set to settle aggressively - but will back off to C (which is what we want to do anyway) with a good tech arrangement in place (ie Republic.).

We will need time to clear site C anyway.

So - those are my initial thoughts. Lets hear from you folks. We need to some of the thinking soon - as the next settler is already north of Screecher and set to go.

	21-01-2004 08:03									#90
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**Hot_Enamel wonders when/if he is ever going to get another turn on playing the saves **


Beta...I am blind ... where is site C ?
Black text is very difficult to find