01-09-2003 05:52									#1
	Growing up in an irreligious household. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

My wife and I were discussing religious education in regards to our 2 year old daughter and, well, we have a dilemma:

We aren't really religious. At all.

We both were raised Catholic (her family was more devout than mine, but then, most families are more devout than mine) and, like many kids, drifted away as we got older. I can't speak for her, but for me, even as a kid being "good" wasn't something I did because I was concerned that God or Jesus or Allah was going to punish me, I was "good" because it made my life easier, that chosing "right" tended to always be the more long-term pragmatic decision. I have never been concerned with my afterlife - if it exists, it does, if it doesn't, it doesn't.

My wife went through a few years soul searching before she pretty much came to the same conclusions. We still feel it's important to teach Sophie about the Bible in order for her to learn about one of the pillars of Western Civilization, but as the major part of a comprehensive belief system? Uh, no, not interested. Thanks!

Therefore, we were wondering what would be the effects if we raised Sophie (Sophia when she's being naughty) in an irreligious environment and if anybody here has been raised in such an environment. And by "irreligious" I don't mean "Dad was actively atheist and would go on and on about the horrors of religion", more like "my parents didn't really care about all that so we never went to church."

Last edited by JohnT on 01-09-2003 at 06:15

	01-09-2003 06:04									#2
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She should be raised in an irreligious environment due to necessity. How can you force your daughter to believe in something that neither of her parents believe in? That said, I don't think there is any great benefit to raising her in a religious environment.

EDIT: Damn, I'm the first one to vote and I misread the question.
Make that "yes" a "no".

	01-09-2003 06:08									#3
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If you raise her to think on her own, take risks, examine her spirituality, and make it clear you love her regardless of her eventual beliefs, and that you shall support her no matter what, there should be absolutely no problems. Either she will on her own gravitate towards one religious sect or another and become faithfull based on HER OWN CHOICE, or not.

Edit, and I had the same probem as skanky..I though the question was whtehr one had been raise in an irreligious household...

* must blame poll maker for own mistakes!

Darn it JohnT, make it clearer!

* there, have shifted blame!

	01-09-2003 06:11									#4
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I agree with GePap... teach your daughter to be a critical thinker, while exposing her to all world religions. Give her the choice, don't brainwash her.

	01-09-2003 06:13									#5
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Let me quote:

quote: Should we raise Sophie "religiously"

.

Thank you.

	01-09-2003 06:14									#6
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Bah, who ever reads the question oevr the poll!!??/ Why,that's like the fine print!!1

	01-09-2003 06:17									#7
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JohnT, is it rare where you are to raise kids without religion?

I don't see any detrimental effects, you don't need a Bible/Quran to teach children values. Why not teach them about all different religious alternatives?

	01-09-2003 06:18									#8
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... must change location field back to "Knoxville, Tennessee."

Does that answer your question, R_J?

	01-09-2003 06:22									#9
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Pretty much.

It is extremely rare over here for parents to take their kids to church every week. We had a French student stay with us a few years back and his parents insisted we take him to Catholic church every sunday. Got real old, real fast and I was religious myself back then.

	01-09-2003 06:33									#10
	Re: Growing up in an irreligious household. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by JohnT We still feel it's important to teach Sophie about the Bible in order for her to learn about one of the pillars of Western Civilization, but as the major part of a comprehensive belief system? Uh, no, not interested. Thanks!

The main problem with a "religious" education in the meaning of promoting actively a blelief system (let's call it a "spiritual" education to distinguish it from the rest) is that you'll force Sophie to take a strong position about the issue. Whether she believes or not will affect her relationship to you, will affect her image of you. Besides, that'd force her to accept (at least during her first years) a religion without free will, without the ability to decide whether it's right or wrong. And should she decide it is wrong some years later, the religious issue could really be a trouble (especially for her).

OTOH, to give her an aducation "about religion" is an excellent thing to do. It is as important as teaching her history, or as explaining her the news. Religion has been and remains a very important element in today's mentalities and societies, and she must know about it if you want her to understand the world. That's why I think you shouldn't strictly stick to the Bible, but you should give her hints about other religions as well, if possible.

quote: Therefore, we were wondering what would be the effects if we raised Sophie (Sophia when she's being naughty) in an irreligious environment and if anybody here has been raised in such an environment. And by "irreligious" I don't mean "Dad was actively atheist and would go on and on about the horrors of religion", more like "my parents didn't really care about all that so we never went to church."

I pretty much correspond to what you said. My mother is of Jewish origin, and my father is of Catholic origin. I don't know if they have any shred of belief (my mother told me sometimes she didn't believe, but this might have changed with age), but I never had any spiritual education. Never was I told by my parents that God is real. Besides, I was never christened nor circumsised. However, I learned a bit about religion, and I quickly understood the influence of Judeo-Christian values over the society and over the morale I overall agreed with.

The fact that my parents didn't teach me any debatable "truth" besides morale has made me greatly independent minded. My communist beliefs are not dependent of my parents' ideology (while none of my parents are commies, it was no mindless rebellion either). Besides, I am not blinded into believing anything I read is "truth", even from the party itself. I am sometimes quite gullible because of the trust I give to individual people, but I think that's another trait of character that has nothing to do with it.

I strongly suggest you to raise Sophie with all the knowledge you can give her, but you should force as little "truth" (political or religious) as possible. Let her judge later if something is true or not

	01-09-2003 06:34									#11
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Oh, and I had no problem with the Poll. My "No" is proper

	01-09-2003 07:05									#12
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My Dad taught me about Evolution and God at the same time, we would both theorise a lot about both things. The conclusion that we both would come up with is that we accepted the fact that there COULD be a God, but neither of us are "God-like" enough to prove that there is or isn't a God, therefore, accepting, that there COULD be a God is the probably the most healthiest thought for the mind in this matter.

Also, for Evolution, we would of course accept that there is change amongst life, and that although Evolution is still in a Theory-Fact transition at this present time, we believed that Evolution is fact. quite easily, but not ruling out the fact that we could be wrong.

Then, when I left home, and had learned many other things in life (I had actually gone to church when I left home, etc, and read up more about Evolution, eductional shows, etc). I had come to the newer and better conclusion that if Evolution is true, that does not mean that God doesn't exist. God, could have created Evolution, for all we know.

So at this point, all this open discussion, freedom to ponder, freedom to theorise, has helped me to make a FAIR and HONEST belief of what COULD BE, and to NOT rule out possibilities.

So if I was you, I would teach your children to be open about thought, and don't shut them out of things that you believe are wrong. For example, if you hate the KKK, that doesn't mean you shouldn't explain your children about the KKK. (of course, they would have to be old enough to understand at least a little bit). But when you do explain things, I wouldn't TRY to lean them towards what YOU BELIEVE is right. But rather tell them what you THINK is right. I think it is bad to have your children become fanatical about a certain belief.

	01-09-2003 07:18									#13
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Like not smoking.

	01-09-2003 07:19									#14
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And not stabbing the neighbours.

	01-09-2003 07:19									#15
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I was raised Protestant until I was 12 when I was allowed not to go to church.

Best thing that ever happened to me.

	01-09-2003 07:40									#16
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I don't see why you want to bring your daughter up in a "religious" household, partiuclarly if it is only a charade. How would she react when she finds that out? Not pretty I'd imagine.

If your goal is to show her morals, you are best off teach her by examples (on second thought, Mr Thruston isn't exactly a pillar of paragon ). Deception and/or hypocrisy are not good virtues to learn at an early stage.

Last edited by Urban Ranger on 01-09-2003 at 07:46

	01-09-2003 07:47									#17
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Yep, monkey see monkey do is a good tenet.

	01-09-2003 07:50									#18
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Leave it to her. People have an amazing ability to find faith on their own, when they need it. Whether or not that faith is in God should be her decision.

I was raised in an irreligious environment, and I don't think I'm any worse for it. In fact, I think I have an objectivity that many of the people I come into contact with lack due to their own religious upbringing.

	01-09-2003 07:54									#19
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I'm like the opposite of Asher,

I was raised in an unreligious household but later became a christian
I noticed that at the church I went to I seemed to have a much stronger faith than those 'raised' in it, I was also much more willing to question and probe the belief system.

As a parent now (12, 9 and 2 year old children) I would definately not force them (or even massivlely encourage them) to be religious - I believe that they can find it on their own.

	01-09-2003 07:58									#20
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I think being brought up on "Religion Lite" gives you enough knowledge about religion and religious people to see them from a better perspective, it also allows you to question religions, understand it, and draw conclusions about it in an informed manner. One thing that I really don't like is when people (religious and atheist) make judgements about a religion by taking things out of context, or taking things that are just plain wrong or inconsequential out of it. In this way being brought up softly religiously (i.e being educated but not taken over by it) can mitigate religious prejudice, in my opinion.

	01-09-2003 07:59									#21
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X>·

	01-09-2003 09:13									#22
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Religion serves two functions, one practical (a moral framework for acceptable behavior) and one spiritual (to tackle humanity's belief or questions about the meaning of life and the feelings that there's 'something' out there).

The first function is reproducible without religion - teach the kid the proper way to behave. You don't need to believe Jesus is the Messiah to understand that you should do unto others as you would have them do unto you. So, teach her right and it'll help her develop into a fulfilled and productive person.

The second is best taught (IMO) by taking a completely neutral approach and teaching about different religions and belief systems. Start slow and work your way up - most kids can't even really fathom the concept of something like God or infinity until they're quite a bit older (which, sadly, is why a lot of early religious 'instruction' is more akin to indoctrination than instruction). She will naturally begin to ask questions when she thinks to ask where the universe came from and what happens when we die. Encourage her to investigate on her own, but teach her enough to give her a start.

Alternatively, you can provide basic instruction in the religion best known to you and your wife, or, if you do have any convictions, the religion you feel the warmest toward. Just don't hammer it into her, and don't each it as the TRUTH. You can raise her with a lightly religious background to fulfill whatever needs may arise, but that is loose enough to allow questions and the possibility that her feelings may evolve and she may choose another (or no) faith.

Since you claim neither you nor your wife has any real religious inclinations, I'd go with the first, more neutral approach.

	01-09-2003 09:51									#23
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"Religion serves two functions, one practical (a moral framework for acceptable behavior) and one spiritual (to tackle humanity's belief or questions about the meaning of life and the feelings that there's 'something' out there)."

We also have some damn fine potlucks.

	01-09-2003 10:04									#24
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I was VERY religious untill I was 15, then I became old enough to form my own beliefs and came to the conclusion that religion was a buch of bullocks (especially after 9/11 for some reason). I also turned from a Libertarian into a Commie. Unfortunatly I live in a very conservative rural town, I am afraid of being ostricized if a lot of townspeople learn that I am an athiest, and a commie; I have to be careful about who I talk to.

	01-09-2003 10:12									#25
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I was totally spiritually apathetic for the vast majority of my childhood. I went to church, but the vast majority of stuff rolled over me like water off a duck's back. As I went through High School though, and I matured, I became a bit more spiritual and understanding of the concepts. I'm happy now that I was raised in a supportive church community, now that I have all the memories. Also, as I encountered more cruelty in the world, my resolve to be a good person strengthened.

Of couse, a Congregationalist upbringing is hardly as intense as Catholicism... damn papists!

	01-09-2003 10:16									#26
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I have a feeling that, when it comes to the Bible, we'll say "Here: Read this and pay attention to this part, this part, and this part. Ignore this, it's boring. And this, this, and this is just flat out wrong. Enjoy, and get back to us in a few months."



I do think the idea that it is wrong for a believing adult to inculcate their child into their religion (as has been argued to me on another board) is bizarre and kinda obliterates half the purpose of parenthood - to raise your child in the manner that you see fit. If you believe in religion, teach the kid religion - after all, none of you are going to resist teaching your child about the importance of "critical thinking" and "thinking for yourself", etc. After all, that's what y'all "believe" in, isn't it?

	01-09-2003 10:27									#27
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But religion is a waste of time and only serves as building some kind of crutch and escapehatch to use instead of being a man and finding your own morals and beliefs.

	01-09-2003 10:28									#28
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Not to mention the pedophile priests, the money laundering ministers, and the *****y choir women.

	01-09-2003 10:29									#29
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JohnT: Yes. I am not familiar with being a parent, but as a Catholic, it is definitely your duty to raise her spiritually as well as a physically and mentally, it is your duty to bring her up in the faith. When she is older she will be in a better position to choose to continue in her faith or not, but while chidren are young they need to be instructed on religion. If you feel inequipped to ever discuss any matters, check what religious education services they have at your parish, and consider enrolling her in CCD.

Of course, Apolyton is a forum that is largely athiest and can be rather hostile to religion. It isn't the best place to go for advice on matters religious, it is far better to discuss your concerns with a priest.

	01-09-2003 10:37									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi JohnT: Yes. I am not familiar with being a parent, but as a Catholic, it is definitely your duty to raise her spiritually as well as a physically and mentally, it is your duty to bring her up in the faith. When she is older she will be in a better position to choose to continue in her faith or not, but while chidren are young they need to be instructed on religion. If you feel inequipped to ever discuss any matters, check what religious education services they have at your parish, and consider enrolling her in CCD.

I think my bullsh!t detector just went off. Go back in to your little bigoted wonderland, you papist.