02-09-2003 21:21									#1
	Saving and reloading turns Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I found a poll about that (Replaying the Same Turn Multiple Times ) and I must react...

If you allow reloading then attacking units can win every combat. It would be better to give every unit attack 50 and defense 1 in rules.txt and reloading of combats wouldn't be needed...
But I don't think a game where an attacker always wins is very interesting...

quote: Originally posted by Kull For me (and I think this is true of most others here), this is a matter of personal honor.

I think this is a matter of foolishness.
I play the game because of thrill from anticipation, sense of responsibility for own decisions and all those similar entertaining things. People that reload (or cheat other way) lose all that.

I understand that some people may prefer win to everything other, or to have an easy game without running into problems or having to think. But then they should play SP, go to cheat menu, and reach the Alpha Centauri in 3900BC.

There is no midway between these two approaches. If you count with a possibility you will reload (or cheat) then you lose that entertaining elements.

quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 I have played in plenty of PBEMs, if you need to replay your turn for perfect results, who cares?

I care. I would not take defense factor of my unit in if I supposed others players reload.
An entertaining point in Civ2 is planning. For planning you need some assumptions. For assumptions you need that players respect some rules.

quote: Originally posted by Kull When he says "who cares", Chris is at least correct in that ... this issue is miniscule in the big scheme of things.

I disagree. Reloading is not limited. With reloading you can win every combat.

quote: Originally posted by St Leo However, it's not cheating.

Players should always agree on some house rules for each game. Then it is clear what is cheating and what is not. I wonder how most games start without a rule agreement.
But even with no rules I would consider it as clear cheating. You break unaffected flow of the game. I don't see a difference between reloading and adding one unit by hexediting every turn.

In Seeds of Greatness PBEM we are preparing a following rule:

quote: You can reload typos and similar mistakes ONLY under following conditions: 1. You can take back only 1 'action'. Action is a movement or another order to one unit rushbuild improvement sale 2. You didn't intend to execute that action, you did it by mistake. 3. The action cannot be taken back if ANY kind of new information is revealed by that action (new terrain is revealed, a new unit is detected, a formerly revealed square has changed (an irrigation is built on it, a foreign city has changed size etc.)...). 4. You can NEVER take back fortuitous actions: combats, hut popping, tech stealing etc. 5. You must correctly repeat all actions between the last save and the mistake that is taken back. The game cannot be reloaded if there is any fortuitous action (combat, hut popping, tech stealing etc.) among actions that are to be repeated (so it is suggested to save after combats, hut popping etc.).

	03-09-2003 01:37									#2
	Support Apolyton

This discussion was boring the first time we had it. As a ban is almost impossible to enforce (the accused just has to say "no I didn't", end of story) there's nothing we can do other than playing with people we trust.

Btw, you seem to be posting a lot of threads about PBEM conduct for someone in only one game. If you click here there's numerous open slots available; we can always use another player.

Last edited by Darius871 on 03-09-2003 at 01:45

	03-09-2003 02:18									#3
	Remove this text

ST Leo,

Please close this one. We have already been down this road and all it does is turn into a flame war.

Whether I agree with Slow Thinker or not, its probably just best to put this issue to rest and let the community police itself.

Thanks!

	04-09-2003 05:22									#4
	Suffering from ads?

I agree with you 100% Slowthinker. How disturbing

...But as Darius and Conmcb point out, we've had this discussion before, and once was enough.

	04-09-2003 09:20									#5
	CLOSE IT BEFORE ITS TOO LATE! Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Could someone PLEEEEEEEEASE close this!

Thanks!

	04-09-2003 09:39									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Um Steve, the last debate never turned into a flame war. You must be thinking about the cheater registry.

	04-09-2003 09:48									#7
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Darius871 Um Steve, the last debate never turned into a flame war. You must be thinking about the cheater registry.

True, True, I just went back and found them to have a few laughs because there was a couple of threads that all happened at the same time last November.

But this could given the "right" people posting. I dont know about you but Im happy with the Cheater list we have right now. I just dont think this issue needs to be rehashed. But hey thats just MHO!

And yes unlike some posters on this topic and related topics in the past, I can separate fact from opinion!

(You know who I mean Darius!)

	05-09-2003 03:59									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Case But as Darius and Conmcb point out, we've had this discussion before, and once was enough.

Why? Somebody that didn't mention the past debate might want to write his opinion.

conmcb25,
I don't understand your fear from sharp debates and different reasons ... Or were there any killed people in any thread?
I think you can only get an inspiration to think from different opinions ...

quote: Originally posted by Darius Btw, you seem to be posting a lot of threads about PBEM conduct for someone in only one game. If you click here there's numerous open slots available; we can always use another player.

You know, in my PBEM I have 5 cities now and I spend 2 hours for one turn. And I don't include diplomatic negotiations in that time...
So one PBEM is enough...

	05-09-2003 05:01									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Please don't wage reload-offensives. Use your judgement. Ethics are in your own self-interest. Be honourable. Don't make me send Klingons do your house.

	06-09-2003 01:32									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker You know, in my PBEM I have 5 cities now and I spend 2 hours for one turn. And I don't include diplomatic negotiations in that time... So one PBEM is enough...

	08-09-2003 09:11									#12
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Why? Somebody that didn't mention the past debate might want to write his opinion. conmcb25, I don't understand your fear from sharp debates and different reasons ... Or were there any killed people in any thread? I think you can only get an inspiration to think from different opinions ...

I do not fear debate. I just think this could easily disinigrate into a flame war which is VERY unfortunate because it is a great debate to have!

I feel just as passionate about reloaders as you do. IMHO reloading=cheating, but a flame war about it is counterproductive wastes some of my and your time and probably irrites the heck out of St Leo.

	08-09-2003 10:58									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: but a flame war about it is counterproductive wastes some of my and your time and probably irrites the heck out of St Leo.

Since when did we start caring about St. Leo?

	08-09-2003 14:11									#14
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 I feel just as passionate about reloaders as you do. IMHO reloading=cheating, but a flame war about it is counterproductive wastes some of my and your time and probably irrites the heck out of St Leo.

Yet again Steve, the last debate about reloading turns got nowhere near being a flame war. It was cordial from beginning to end.

	08-09-2003 20:37									#15
	Put an end to popups!

Darius, I said it COULD not WOULD disintegrate into a flame war.

And yes I know that particular discussion did not. However the other two related discussions did.

All Im guilty of is: "Guilt by Association".

Most of here are mature enough to have a very good above board discussion. Unfortunately a few are not. Thats all Im concerned about.

OK, I will adjust my request. If this turns into a flame war ST Leo then please close the thread.

My Opinion:

RELOADING = CHEATING, PERIOD!

	08-09-2003 21:17									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 And yes I know that particular discussion did not. However the other two related discussions did.

Related? They just occurred at roughly the same time.

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Most of here are mature enough to have a very good above board discussion. Unfortunately a few are not. Thats all Im concerned about.

Perhaps in the other discussion, but everyone (even those you're referring to as immature) was reasonable in this one.

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 OK, I will adjust my request. If this turns into a flame war ST Leo then please close the thread.

Most likely it'll just fade away due to lack of interest. Curse you for bumping it to the top.

	08-09-2003 21:37									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Darius871 Related? They just occurred at roughly the same time.

Well they all dealed with cheating basically, blacklists, reloading, etc.

quote: Originally posted by Darius871 Perhaps in the other discussion, but everyone (even those you're referring to as immature) was reasonable in this one.

I agree

quote: Originally posted by Darius871 Most likely it'll just fade away due to lack of interest. Curse you for bumping it to the top.

DITTO! -

	08-09-2003 22:44									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 My Opinion: RELOADING = CHEATING, PERIOD!

Aaah, I see, you are afraid from you yourself! Mr. Jekyll and. Mr. Hyde...

I think reloading needn't to be cheating. If players agree that everybody can conjure up one settler per turn by hexediting then everything is OK.
I see the problem is that most PBEM games go without house rules.
Without exact rules people tend to simplify their Civ2 life and get used to their 'light cheats'. Eventually light cheats become heavier and one day you find out that many PBEM players got accustomed to reloading.

(MP players have their sets of rules (see 'rah rules' in Civ2-Multiplaying for example))

	08-09-2003 22:55									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker I think reloading needn't to be cheating. If players agree that everybody can conjure up one settler per turn by hexediting then everything is OK.

I dont think there is any need for sarcasm Slowthinker. If there is no way of policing this, then why are we even arguing about it?

	08-09-2003 23:11									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by EZRhino I dont think there is any need for sarcasm Slowthinker. If there is no way of policing this, then why are we even arguing about it?

There was a smiley attached, I dont believe anything was meant other than humor. Thats the way I took it.

	09-09-2003 00:30									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I am sorry to be confusing: that smile was for the first sentence only.

Players may have different opinions - one may consider incremental rushbuy as bad, another one can consider a game with one new settler per turn as interesting (OK, I go to extremes). Anyway I think clear house rules for every game would be very beneficial.

quote: Originally posted by EZRhino If there is no way of policing this, then why are we even arguing about it?

1. It is interesting
2. It may be beneficial (I think it is good that people inclined to reloading and/or cheating perceive that they lose the most entertaining elements of the game)

About policing reloading - there would be a way how to appease feelings that another player was reloading: logs. When the game finishes you could read that not all huts of your more prosperous opponent contained 100 gold and not all his warriors killed heavy infantry.
But I can understand many people might consider logs detaining.

	09-09-2003 00:40									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Actually indirectly you can prove reloading at least sometimes.

Lets say I have to reload for a combat result that only happens every 50 turns. Well unless it is a new scenario usually players will know the combat I just did required reloading or changing the rules.txt values.

Now the accused could deny that, but at least at that point he knows he is being watched. A series of very lucky combat results probably indicate reloading or rules.txt modifications.

In that way you can tell, not 100%, but it passes the reasonable person test.

	09-09-2003 01:09									#23
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Anyway I think clear house rules for every game would be very beneficial.

I would tend to agree. What would be considered cheating needs to be set in stone before each game.

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 In that way you can tell, not 100%, but it passes the reasonable person test.

I dont like the idea of people accusing each other of cheating just because of 'improbable' battle outcomes. These things do happen. If it happens more than you might think is possible, then keep your eye on the person, but nobody should make any accusations unless they have proof, which is, unfortunatly, impossible to acquire using this technique

	09-09-2003 02:51									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think there is much less cheaters than suspicion... And I think both suspect and cheating are bad ... and both could be solved by logs (they would be published after the game ends).
Say you read from a log that a player got 100 gold from 5 huts in a row. You needn't to accuse him from cheating, or to care if he cheated or not. But everybody sees he won because he was very lucky.
This is not good for a cheater: he wants to show he is strong, not lucky.

	09-09-2003 06:51									#25
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by MagyarCrusader Since when did we start caring about St. Leo?

That's not what you said last night, hippy punk of doom. My feelings are hurt now.