05-09-2003 17:52									#31
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So that's why Blair is Bush's poodle.

	05-09-2003 17:58									#32
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If he said, "I'm really sorry, I seem to have accidently spilt some water on you" we'd all be happy 'cos we're all (the majority of the public) basically too disinterested in what's really going on to care about anything much deeper than appearances.

I think the whole concept of being nice to people to get your way is called diplomacy or something. It's not a very American way of doing things though.

	05-09-2003 19:11									#33
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quote: Absolutely. Clinton was quite popular here because he understood how to say stuff to the international community, his international policies weren't really all that different to Bush's (pre 9/11).

Clinton gave incorrect information about the US to Europe. For instance, he signed up to Kyoto knowing full well that in the foreseeable future it would not be ratified by the Senate. But Europe read it (rightly) that we're on board with the program.

Once Bush starts giving the correct information--that hell will freeze over before Kyoto is ratified--Europeans feel betrayed. But instead of being angry at the one who sold you that line of goods, you get angry at the person in front of you--Bush.

	05-09-2003 19:16									#34
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Yeah, that's the example I had in mind when I said it.

The point is still valid that Bush has absolutely no idea how to talk to the rest of the international community.

	05-09-2003 19:42									#35
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quote: The Balkans are pretty much always up to no good unless someone is putting the smackdown on them.

coming from someone who knows jackshit about the region...

	05-09-2003 20:10									#36
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quote: The point is still valid that Bush has absolutely no idea how to talk to the rest of the international community.

I don't think that's true. He has been clear about what he was doing and why he was doing it. There is a high value in that. For instance, on Kyoto, knowing clearly that the US was opting out of the treaty and going more toward the basic science of climate change helped y'all plan accordingly.

	05-09-2003 20:15									#37
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"going more toward the basic science of climate change"

	05-09-2003 20:20									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I don't think that's true. He has been clear about what he was doing and why he was doing it. There is a high value in that. For instance, on Kyoto, knowing clearly that the US was opting out of the treaty and going more toward the basic science of climate change helped y'all plan accordingly.

You are still missing the point. It's not that WHAT he said was wrong it's HOW he said it that was bad.

	05-09-2003 20:23									#39
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I'm not missing the point at all. The way that he said it communicated clearly to y'all that the treaty was toast. It wasn't on his agenda. It might have pissed you off, but now you're under no illusions.

If you're going to argue this point, then give me a specific example that sticks in your mind of how he said it that could have been done more diplomatically.

	05-09-2003 20:28									#40
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Bush makes those French knights in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" seem like skilled diplomats

	05-09-2003 20:29									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid Bush makes those French knights in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" seem like skilled diplomats

damn "KANIGETTS!"

	05-09-2003 20:38									#42
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Urgh...

not sure I can be arsed trawling through news archives from 2 years ago to find quotes. Basically the tone from the White House changed from "let's work together to make the world better" to "we're going to make sure that Americas interests are protected and if that makes things worse for you then tough."

Now as you've said that isn't a change in policy but it makes it hard for politicians from other countries not to protest if their electorates are now going to percieve them as weak for not 'standing up' to America.

It's just the same in life, you get away with a lot more by being polite to people than you do if you are rude about it. If you turn up late for work and say, "Yeah, I was late so, what are you going to do about it?" in front of your boss he'll have no choice but to dicipline you. If you go and apologise you'll probably be Ok.

I know there is a strong feeling in the US that you don't need to be nice because you are so powerful but then you end up in situations like Iraq currently where no-one wants to help you (us), even though it would benefit them to do so because you've pissed them off so much in the past.

	05-09-2003 20:53									#43
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Well, I know it's frustrating. But if there aren't even any "old Europe" moments to hang your hat on, then how am I to know on what Bush needs to work? Sounds to me like Europe is punishing the messenger.

If it's any consolation, there is a subset of the American electorate that also didn't want to be told the truth about the issue and hates Bush because he was pretty clear about it.

	05-09-2003 22:43									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Sava coming from someone who knows jackshit about the region...

comming from soeone who could not find his ass with both hands.

	05-09-2003 22:57									#45
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I suggest we arm europe with old rifles and tanks, give part of the troops grey pointy hats and zeppelins and the other part silly wide army pants and a fake moustaches, and then America can go on with it's bussines peacefully for some four or five years without Europe meddling in world important affairs

	05-09-2003 23:02									#46
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Bush's 'plain-talking' is just an inventive way to cover up his ineptness. I remember, at the start of the road map, his naivety and inexperience were being touted as bonuses; unlike Clinton, who was well-briefed and informed, George would not be derailed by squabbles over individual farms and so on. I, for one, thought it might actually work. Unsurprisingly, it failed.

	05-09-2003 23:02									#47
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Well, I know it's frustrating. But if there aren't even any "old Europe" moments to hang your hat on, then how am I to know on what Bush needs to work? Sounds to me like Europe is punishing the messenger.

Well it's a combination of the complete lack of tact and diplomatic skills combined with policies that are far to the right of anything in mainstream European politics.

	05-09-2003 23:10									#48
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I think it's almost all about the policies. It's a natural human reaction to dislike hearing a view that is diametrically opposed to your own. Even moreso when you know that there's not going to be much opportunity for persuasion.

I don't like Schroeder or that French guy much because of it.

	05-09-2003 23:12									#49
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It's both but yes, the policies are often scary and offensive (to European ears).

	05-09-2003 23:18									#50
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OK, so we're making some progress. I think we could probably agree on a good package of what those policies are. Kyoto, death penalty, ICJ, war with Iraq. All offensive to Europeans. All popular in the States.

Mostly, this offense isn't reciprocated, but there you are.

	05-09-2003 23:21									#51
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That's a start.

	05-09-2003 23:29									#52
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I'd see 4 things:

- extreme right wing policies
- a lack of will to compromise
- a double standard in demanding concessions from others
- a highly arrogant, insulting style

Will take a bit, but we can play that game too. Works extremely well in matters of trade.

	05-09-2003 23:31									#53
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MikeH: OK, then using this survey we can generalize the discussion.

At least the Germans are becoming increasingly pacifist, while at the same time wanting the trappings that go along with superpowerdom. This desire is mainly due to all of those US policies that are offensive to Germans, but about which they have been shown to be able to do precious little about currently.

You follow?

	05-09-2003 23:34									#54
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Hmm ... whatever did happen to the EU initiative to the Korean Peninsula? Did it get overshadowed and eventually superceded by other developments? Or is it still on the table, being unobtrusive about things?

Gatekeeper

	05-09-2003 23:36									#55
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quote: Originally posted by DanS At least the Germans are becoming increasingly pacifist, while at the same time wanting the trappings that go along with superpowerdom.

"War", "Justice" and "Superpower" don't mean the same thing to germans as they do to you. So that troll doesn't catch.

	05-09-2003 23:36									#56
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quote: - a lack of will to compromise

Euros just don't like that they have to compromise 3/4 while the US has to only compromise 1/4 on some things. But this is the score, if Europe isn't a superpower.

quote: - a double standard in demanding concessions from others

You like redundancy, don't you.

quote: - extreme right wing policies

That's where the electorate is at, although of course I wouldn't describe the policies as extreme right wing.

	05-09-2003 23:39									#57
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quote: "War", "Justice" and "Superpower" don't mean the same thing to germans as they do to you. So that troll doesn't catch.

You're going to have to explain this to me.

	05-09-2003 23:46									#58
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In stereotypes:

war: bombing 3rd world countries vs total destruction of homeland

justice: getting some bad guy vs political solutions of conflicts

superpower: military vs economic/political power

you're the best exanple for the last point.

	05-09-2003 23:48									#59
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Euros just don't like that they have to compromise 3/4 while the US has to only compromise 1/4 on some things. But this is the score, if Europe isn't a superpower.

This admin doesn't even go the 1/4, so it doesn't matter.

	05-09-2003 23:52									#60
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quote: Originally posted by DanS At least the Germans are becoming increasingly pacifist, while at the same time wanting the trappings that go along with superpowerdom. This desire is mainly due to all of those US policies that are offensive to Germans, but about which they have been shown to be able to do precious little about currently.

I donīt think we are are becoming increasingly pacifist, Iīd rather think pacifism isnīt as widespread anymore in general here. After years of conflict on the Balkan there is a certain will here to participate in military action, but not in clearly preemptive wars (letīs ignore if justified or not) and only in an international context (not neccessarily UN, but certainly not if there is the impression that besides the US noone really is happy with a particular action). During the last decade Germany has moved from a "no German troops ever outside NATO area" attitude towards more pragmatism. Pacifism plays still an important role here, but I doubt it is increasing. The problem is where should we participate and under what conditions.