07-09-2003 03:22									#61
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So let's see: we are to bring peace to the sides, but the democratically elected leader of one side must be removed and an undemocratically appointed individual must be the one to bring about the agreement cause of course being unelected and basing his power on the support of the enemy and its patron is trully the way to make a deal valid to the people being led (perhaps against their whishes) to said deal. Yes, of course that makes all sorts of sense! Not good ones, mind you, but some sort of sense....

	07-09-2003 03:29									#62
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Okay...I read that three times, and still have no clue what the hell you're trying to say.

	07-09-2003 03:35									#63
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Arafat was eelcted, and each time the US and Israel makes it all about him, his popularity goes up: they want to ignore Arafat (who was elected so can at least claim some level of ligetimacy) and use a guy who is competent, but never having been elected has no political legitimacy among his own people, and is likely to have less the more and more he is seen as Israel's choice,US's choice. What on earth makes anyone here think the average Palestinains should support a peace plan signed by a guy that has no political legitimacy among his own people????

Let Israel invade Gaza to get at Hamas and to expel Arafat..certainly terrorism will go down for maybe a year. Also kiss the possibility of a political solution goodbye for even more years. But I am sure Israeli and US tax payers will be able to bear the costs of a reoccupation of all the territories for the next few years, and that this will have only a positive impact on islamist terrorism vis a vi the US.... well, postive in terms of recruitment.
Oh,a nd think of all the new settlements that can crop up!

	07-09-2003 03:38									#64
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This just seems to be part of Sharon's campaign to work up to expelling all the Palestinians from the occupied territories. Presumably, targeting the Sheikh is meant to provoke the Palestinians into going wild as the pretext for a full invasion and expulsion, which will not be characterised as ethnic cleansing, even though that's what it will be.

And if that happens I'll personally commit myself to spitting on any Israeli I see.

	07-09-2003 03:38									#65
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Arafat was eelcted, and each time the US and Israel makes it all about him, his popularity goes up: they want to ignore Arafat (who was elected so can at least claim some level of ligetimacy) and use a guy who is competent, but never having been elected has no political legitimacy among his own people, and is likely to have less the more and more he is seen as Israel's choice,US's choice. What on earth makes anyone here think the average Palestinains should support a peace plan signed by a guy that has no political legitimacy among his own people???? Let Israel invade Gaza to get at Hamas and to expel Arafat..certainly terrorism will go down for maybe a year. Also kiss the possibility of a political solution goodbye for even more years. But I am sure Israeli and US tax payers will be able to bear the costs of a reoccupation of all the territories for the next few years, and that this will have only a positive impact on islamist terrorism vis a vi the US.... well, postive in terms of recruitment. Oh,a nd think of all the new settlements that can crop up!

They don't want to occupy it, they want to eject the Palestinians.

	07-09-2003 03:45									#66
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"transfer"(nice euphamism) is not an option: not a sane or workable option anyway.

	07-09-2003 04:09									#67
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quote: Originally posted by GePap "transfer"(nice euphamism) is not an option: not a sane or workable option anyway.

I don't know. I don't think it's sane, but when has that ever stopped radical rightists.

	07-09-2003 04:17									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I don't know. I don't think it's sane, but when has that ever stopped radical rightists.

"Transfer" gets about 35% approval in the polls: that leaves 65% unsure,, and I would say one could count on at least 50% of Israelis not going along, specially the million Arabs. So first of all, t do it, Israel would have to mobilize its entire army, not only to handle the ligistics of doing this, but I seriously doubt the neighboring states would open their borders (namely Jordan and Egypt), so it would be inviting a war with it's neigbors (yes, not only Syria but all of them) by doing so. Second,expect huge internal disturbances in the country itself, and the US could not even imagine of supporting any such Israeli move (unless it want's to see its ME positoion utterly and irrevocably destroyed)So Israel would face complete diplomatic isolation over this, and probalby severe sanctions, and since Israel is a trading state, well.....

	07-09-2003 04:24									#69
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quote: Originally posted by GePap "Transfer" gets about 35% approval in the polls: that leaves 65% unsure,, and I would say one could count on at least 50% of Israelis not going along, specially the million Arabs. So first of all, t do it, Israel would have to mobilize its entire army, not only to handle the ligistics of doing this, but I seriously doubt the neighboring states would open their borders (namely Jordan and Egypt), so it would be inviting a war with it's neigbors (yes, not only Syria but all of them) by doing so. Second,expect huge internal disturbances in the country itself, and the US could not even imagine of supporting any such Israeli move (unless it want's to see its ME positoion utterly and irrevocably destroyed)So Israel would face complete diplomatic isolation over this, and probalby severe sanctions, and since Israel is a trading state, well.....

None of the neighbours would dare do anything. They'd take an(other) absolute kicking.

Right now "transfer" is probably higher in the polls, but not really high enough and it's probably much higher among Likud and other right wing voters. Presumably if there is an extreme crisis the public will support decisive action long enough to allow it to be done.

I did read somewhere (and I'm an idiot for not marking it down) that the IDF has a plan ready to go if ever needed. I don't know if that's true, but it seems likely that it's been thought about.

They don't even have to go the whole way - just make life so unbearable (as if it could get much worse) that many Palestinians leave anyway.

I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, but I'm trying to make sense of Sharon's strategy here which seems to have been to provoke the militants as much as possible as a pretext for reneging on the promise of a Palestinian State. The attempt to assissinate Sheikh Whatisname is the high point so far. How much more can they push?

Surprisingly I think Arafat is safe - as long as he's alive he remains an excuse.

	07-09-2003 10:02									#70
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bump

	07-09-2003 10:20									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Recall Arafat!

I agree - ship his ass back to his French villa (just don't martyr the jerk).

	07-09-2003 10:26									#72
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With the proper application of force in dealing with terrorist groups and the states that sponsor them, then Arafat becomes a non-issue anyway. Let the Pals have them as their founding father...who cares? Just do whatever it takes to dismatle the state sponsored terrorists.

I have to say though, that if it was up to me, I would send one of those nice little missles straight up his a$$ and then willingly and harshly deal with the consequences.

Until the world gets some balls and decides to really eliminate terrorism, the likes of him will always be with us.

	07-09-2003 11:05									#73
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I have the answer to everything. Arnold needs to run for Prime Minister of Palestine!

	07-09-2003 11:27									#74
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quote: So, those projects in education, infrastructure etc don't exist, and it all goes to rebuilding Arafat's compound? Is that your point? Or are you claiming that the EU is funding palestinian terrorists?

Some of the money from that goes to it's goal. Some goes to Arafat's welfare. Some goes to paycheks of goons and terrorists like Tanzim and the Al-Aqsa brigades.

Furthermore, the more support a country pours at the PA, the more it thinks it has an effect on Arafat. While that would seem true, he doesn't really care and until the countries pouring money will understand that they are not gaining any increased respect, they will have invested huge sums.


Furthermore, until recently the EU has not declared the Hamas as a terrorist organization and has not froze it's assests or disallowed charity to be collected for them.

	07-09-2003 11:33									#75
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"Some goes to paycheks of goons and terrorists like Tanzim and the Al-Aqsa brigades."

I've heard that again and again from Israeli and US zionist sources, but never seen evidence for it.

"While that would seem true, he doesn't really care and until the countries pouring money will understand that they are not gaining any increased respect, they will have invested huge sums."

I think it gives some leverage. It's also about building some relation to the palestinians.

"Furthermore, until recently the EU has not declared the Hamas as a terrorist organization and has not froze it's assests or disallowed charity to be collected for them."

Hamas' political wing.

	07-09-2003 11:52									#76
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quote: So let's see: we are to bring peace to the sides, but the democratically elected leader of one side must be removed and an undemocratically appointed individual must be the one to bring about the agreement cause of course being unelected and basing his power on the support of the enemy and its patron is trully the way to make a deal valid to the people being led (perhaps against their whishes) to said deal. Yes, of course that makes all sorts of sense! Not good ones, mind you, but some sort of sense....

2 things.

1st : LOL @ Arafat being democratically elected.

He had 2 years to base his power while in control of the territories before the elections. He has already been the chairman of PLO. He is known to have threatened, jailed, and even killed people who resisted him, including journalists and palestinian politicians. And some... 8 years have passed since the last (and only) "democratic" election.


Furthermore I remind you again of history: Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were all "decapitated", humiliated, forced to surrender, appointed a non-democratic western ruler, and brain-washed against their former policies.

Currently both countries are successfull non-militaristic democracies.

This is the only solution that will work in Palestine.

quote: This just seems to be part of Sharon's campaign to work up to expelling all the Palestinians from the occupied territories. Presumably, targeting the Sheikh is meant to provoke the Palestinians into going wild as the pretext for a full invasion and expulsion, which will not be characterised as ethnic cleansing, even though that's what it will be. And if that happens I'll personally commit myself to spitting on any Israeli I see.

quote: None of the neighbours would dare do anything. They'd take an(other) absolute kicking. Right now "transfer" is probably higher in the polls, but not really high enough and it's probably much higher among Likud and other right wing voters. Presumably if there is an extreme crisis the public will support decisive action long enough to allow it to be done. I did read somewhere (and I'm an idiot for not marking it down) that the IDF has a plan ready to go if ever needed. I don't know if that's true, but it seems likely that it's been thought about. They don't even have to go the whole way - just make life so unbearable (as if it could get much worse) that many Palestinians leave anyway. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, but I'm trying to make sense of Sharon's strategy here which seems to have been to provoke the militants as much as possible as a pretext for reneging on the promise of a Palestinian State. The attempt to assissinate Sheikh Whatisname is the high point so far. How much more can they push? Surprisingly I think Arafat is safe - as long as he's alive he remains an excuse.

God, you are even stupider than I ever imagined.

From this moment forth see yourself being spat on by me, everytime you make a post about the ME conflict.

	07-09-2003 12:49									#77
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quote: "Some goes to paycheks of goons and terrorists like Tanzim and the Al-Aqsa brigades." I've heard that again and again from Israeli and US zionist sources, but never seen evidence for it.

Great.

Why don't you come along to our intelligence HQ and we'll show you the data.

Btw, if you ARE interested, copies of the said documents proving Arafat signing on orders to pay known Al-Aqsa terrorists, can be found on the IDF spokesman page, and probably on the Foreign Ministry page.

www.idf.il
www.mfa.gov.il

(ok I checked, and I couldn't find it myself now. But it was there previously.

I will try and provide it if you are sincerely interested)

quote: "While that would seem true, he doesn't really care and until the countries pouring money will understand that they are not gaining any increased respect, they will have invested huge sums." I think it gives some leverage. It's also about building some relation to the palestinians.

But that's the whole point - Arafat has NEVER listened to the Europeans. He has never done anything anybody asked him to, unless the US was seriously twisting his arm.

But the euro's are slow to realize they have had no effect, and will never will.

quote: "Furthermore, until recently the EU has not declared the Hamas as a terrorist organization and has not froze it's assests or disallowed charity to be collected for them." Hamas' political wing.

same difference.

There is no difference between the two.

The "political wing" provides funding, organization, and religious justification to the actions of the "militant wing".

All these wings are made up.

There's no one at Hamas checking their finances and going: "well this money was collected in europe so it will only go to charity, while this money was collected in saudi arabia, and will only go to terrorism".

They distribute it all from the same pot, according to their needs.

	07-09-2003 13:10									#78
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Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were all "decapitated", humiliated, forced to surrender, appointed a non-democratic western ruler, and brain-washed against their former policies.

Yes, and the Allies established an apartheid regime with settlements.
Btw, most attempts at denazification lead to the Persilschein-mentality. The real dealing with the past came in the 60s and 70s. In Germany, the 2nd tier of the Weimar political elite, like Adenauer, was still around. A working civil administration was available. It's ahistorical bollocks to compare Germany and Palestine 1:1 (or Iraq).

Why don't you come along to our intelligence HQ and we'll show you the data.

IOW, you have no evidence.

Btw, if you ARE interested, copies of the said documents proving Arafat signing on orders to pay known Al-Aqsa terrorists

Different thing. On that standard, Israel funds Al Aqsa, too.

But that's the whole point - Arafat has NEVER listened to the Europeans. He has never done anything anybody asked him to, unless the US was seriously twisting his arm.

The US? What has it done?
Arafat is a *****, and everyone has little influence on what he does. As far as I'm concerned, we should get out of all that crap. Israel and PA.

The "political wing" provides funding, organization, and religious justification to the actions of the "militant wing".

I agree that distinguishing doesn't make much sense, unless you think you can negotiate with hamas.

	07-09-2003 15:34									#79
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Hersh, are you nucking futz?

Where exactly are you going to get evidence, apart from IDF seizures?

That's like saying crime scene evidence is inadmissable because the police have an interest in making an arrest stick.

	07-09-2003 16:01									#80
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"Where exactly are you going to get evidence, apart from IDF seizures?"

And where's the big problem in making it public and subjecting it to scrutiny? Oh wait, Israel forwarded some documents, just didn't amount to much. Even the MEPs who wanted an investigation of the EU's support for the PA couldn't do anything based on them.

"That's like saying crime scene evidence is inadmissable because the police have an interest in making an arrest stick."

No, it's like saying if you don't disclose it, you can't base a conviction on it.

Same old game that's being played here: innuendo, some evidence for something different, and the miraculous evidence you can't provide because it's oh so secret, "just trust us".

AFAIK the EU has only had one support program that went directly to the PA with a rahther broad purpose of keeping it running. Funnily enough, it was ended recently when Israel agreed to resume tax transfers to the PA as part of the road map implementation. And it used the same account as all donors, including Israeli tax transfers.

	07-09-2003 16:09									#81
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I seriously doubt they're lying about this. Israel is a true democracy, and democracies are very leaky as a rule. I don't think they would risk it.

If they did risk it, I suspect they would do so in a big way, such that no one could keep up with the flow of forged documents. Big Lies tend to be more successful than little ones.

	07-09-2003 16:40									#82
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"democracies are very leaky as a rule"

That can be easily overcome by enough people believing a lie. But this isn't even about a lie, but more a matter of spin. If EU funding of the PA leaks out to Al Aqsa, so does US and Israeli funding. But in the case of the EU it has to be an evil plot and a propaganda story, because the EU is not rabidly pro-Israel.

	07-09-2003 16:55									#83
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With the Abbas resignation, a freezing of US and Israeli funds seems very likely.

	07-09-2003 16:57									#84
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BTW, do you think Hamas' political wing carries any weight with the rest of Hamas?

	07-09-2003 17:01									#85
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I doubt it. The only purpose would be to keep an opportunity to negotiate with Hamas. And if it's just about a ceasefire.

	07-09-2003 18:59									#86
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were all "decapitated", humiliated, forced to surrender, appointed a non-democratic western ruler, and brain-washed against their former policies. Yes, and the Allies established an apartheid regime with settlements. Btw, most attempts at denazification lead to the Persilschein-mentality. The real dealing with the past came in the 60s and 70s. In Germany, the 2nd tier of the Weimar political elite, like Adenauer, was still around. A working civil administration was available. It's ahistorical bollocks to compare Germany and Palestine 1:1 (or Iraq). Why don't you come along to our intelligence HQ and we'll show you the data. IOW, you have no evidence. Btw, if you ARE interested, copies of the said documents proving Arafat signing on orders to pay known Al-Aqsa terrorists Different thing. On that standard, Israel funds Al Aqsa, too. But that's the whole point - Arafat has NEVER listened to the Europeans. He has never done anything anybody asked him to, unless the US was seriously twisting his arm. The US? What has it done? Arafat is a *****, and everyone has little influence on what he does. As far as I'm concerned, we should get out of all that crap. Israel and PA. The "political wing" provides funding, organization, and religious justification to the actions of the "militant wing". I agree that distinguishing doesn't make much sense, unless you think you can negotiate with hamas.

can you post your crazy stuff somewhere else , .....

	07-09-2003 19:17									#87
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...., .... .. .... ...

Have a nice day.

	07-09-2003 19:47									#88
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Hersh, are you nucking futz?

And the answer is.....



YES!

	07-09-2003 19:54									#89
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100-0

	07-09-2003 21:57									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov 2 things. 1st : LOL @ Arafat being democratically elected. He had 2 years to base his power while in control of the territories before the elections. He has already been the chairman of PLO. He is known to have threatened, jailed, and even killed people who resisted him, including journalists and palestinian politicians. And some... 8 years have passed since the last (and only) "democratic" election.

And the palestinains still view him as their egitimately chosen leader, which is the point.

quote: Furthermore I remind you again of history: Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were all "decapitated", humiliated, forced to surrender, appointed a non-democratic western ruler, and brain-washed against their former policies.

The annalogy is utterly incorrect. The Palestianins have never had a state of their own to be conquered, and what is currently going on is not a huge war. Both the German and Japanese people accepted the legitimacy of the occupying powers, given that they had lost a war and been invaded (after they invaded others). No Palestinian sees the Israeli occupation as in any imaginable way legitimate. Plus, the palestiians don;t need to be brainwashed to gain anti-Israeli feelings. Their eery day lives are more than enough of a rude education in that.

quote: Currently both countries are successfull non-militaristic democracies. This is the only solution that will work in Palestine.

It hasn't worked for 30 years before Oslo, what on earth makes you think it will work now?

At some point someone here will ahe to realize there are 3 million Palestinians who's opinions actually matter, and that they will oly accept (just like Israelis will only accept) a peace plan they see having been arrive legitimately by individuals they entrsted with the power to make choices for them. Few Pals. saw Aby Mazen as that man, speically since he was unable to get any significant thing done vis a vi Israel. Instead of that prisoner release, or even instead of easing moving restrictions the Israelis could have (with no security implications for themselves) removed all outposts, populated or otherwise, set up since sept. 2000. That would have given Mazen a huge boost: but of course would have meant real political heat for Sharon, so only a half step was taken and soon abandoned.