06-09-2003 23:54									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Boris,

quote: Perhaps after the Fall, God made the other people to be like "ordinary humans," with the ability to be wicked, just for the very purpose of creating a diverse gene pool and suitable mates for the descendants of A&E?

Then God is essentially creating sub-humans, whose goal in life is simply to mate with the better species. God would be creating humans who would be unable to make the same decision Adam and Eve made, and creating them for a much different purpose. Is this what you are proposing?

And what do you mean "live like ordinary humans"? You mean, with a sin nature and original sin?

Cali,

quote: Jesus' work here on earth was done, and it was decided by him not to interfere in the natural conclusion to his human experience.

Uh, why? Why would Jesus allow himself to go through a crucifixion for no greater good? Why would God allow it?

	06-09-2003 23:59									#62
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Uh, why? Why would Jesus allow himself to go through a crucifixion for no greater good? Why would God allow it?

Part of Jesus' purpose was also to gain the experience of living as a mortal. Gaining this experience qualified him to rule our part of the universe.

	07-09-2003 00:20									#63
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Part of Jesus' purpose was also to gain the experience of living as a mortal.

Uh, no, actually that's not Biblical.

	07-09-2003 00:56									#64
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: I don't know about you Imran, but most of the women I know wouldn't like the 'equality' that would be afforded to them under an Islamic society. And when I mean Islamic, I mean one of those countries like Iran under the 'enlightened' rule of the imams.

I don't know about you, our_man, but most of the women I know wouldn't like the 'equality' that would afforded to them under a Christian society. And when I mean Christian, I mean one of those countries like the Vatican under the 'enlightened' rule of the Pope.

That was easy .

As Ramo stated, three Islamic countries, INCLUDING the two largest (Indonesia and Pakistan) have had women leaders. You cannot say that for the two largest Christian countries (largest meaning population, of course).

quote: I have friends from Malaysia in university. They're basically treated like 2nd class citizens in Malaysia because they are not Muslim. Most of the Malaysian Muslims studying in Ireland are being paid for by their government; non-Muslims for the most part have to pay their own way. And yet they have to come to study here, because some of the higher learning institutes in Malaysia are 'Muslim only' and there are not enough places.

I still struggle to find how religious discrimination = racism. They simply aren't the same thing.

	07-09-2003 00:58									#65
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Why would Jesus allow himself to go through a crucifixion for no greater good? Why would God allow it?

To show that God/Jesus would go through the ultimate sacrifice for humanity (to cleanse the sins of the faithful).

	07-09-2003 01:01									#66
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Why would Jesus allow himself to go through a crucifixion for no greater good? Why would God allow it? To show that God/Jesus would go through the ultimate sacrifice for humanity (to cleanse the sins of the faithful).

The point of the question was why God/Jesus would go through it if cleansing mankind of sins wasn't a factor (hence the entire Original Sin debate).

	07-09-2003 01:04									#67
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Well, the point of my point was that Original Sin is a factor in Christianity . You can't explain it in any other way, IMO.

	07-09-2003 01:10									#68
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well, the point of my point was that Original Sin is a factor in Christianity . You can't explain it in any other way, IMO.

Yeah, but that's pointless if one is presupposing Original Sin doesn't exist, which was Cali's position. Saying that Original Sin exists because Original Sin exists is rather circular, ain't it?

DF:

I wouldn't say "subhuman." You say they were denied the same choice A&E had...but aren't we all? As a libertarian, don't you think it's categorically unfair to be sullied with the sin of someone who lived thousands of years ago and whose actions over which you had no control?

Regardless, say God decided, after the Fall, to create a bunch of new people who were capable of wickedness. Maybe he pulled the old rib trick that he did on Adam to make Eve. This time, though, since the material would have come from A&E, it would still be "tainted."

	07-09-2003 01:13									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Yeah, but that's pointless if one is presupposing Original Sin doesn't exist, which was Cali's position. Saying that Original Sin exists because Original Sin exists is rather circular, ain't it?

No, I'm saying that in Christianity, Original Sin exists because you can't explain things any other way... which I guess is Floyd's argument.

	07-09-2003 02:32									#70
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Uh, no, actually that's not Biblical.

At this point, I'm not trying to be.

	07-09-2003 03:07									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

A: There are 2 ways

- Promote Interracial orgies.
- Kill everyone except white ppl.

either way there will be no racism.... eventually.

	07-09-2003 03:44									#72
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Imran, I don't know where you're getting the idea that I'm trying to defend some aspects of Christian society; I'm not. I wouldn't like living under the Pope's thumb either. I'm a good Catholic and all, but even I think some of the ideas he has had recently haven't been wise. An even better argument would have been in the Magdalene Laundries in my own country - these weren't exactly women friendly either. Guess you missed that one, huh?

Imran, if you're so enchanted with the Muslim world, why don't you move there? You seem to be suggesting that women have it far better in the Muslim world than they do in the West; I imagine it would be right up your street.

Both you and Ramo are somehow coming to the conclusion that just because Indonesia and Pakistan have elected women presidents, that they're fairer to women than we are.

Guys, you really need to check your facts. I don't know that much about Indonesia, but women have a pretty hard time in Pakistan.

By the way Imran, sexism isn't racism, but you seemed perfectly willing to pick up on that argument, yet you dismissed religious discrimination as racism. Don't pick battles you can't win, I guess.

Malaysia is a rather unique situation however. There are three distinct ethnic groups; Indians, Chinese and Malays. The Malays are exclusively Muslim, and discriminate against the other groups (who are not Muslim) on both religion and race. The two are linked.

	07-09-2003 04:11									#73
	Tired of ads?

quote: Imran, if you're so enchanted with the Muslim world, why don't you move there? You seem to be suggesting that women have it far better in the Muslim world than they do in the West; I imagine it would be right up your street.

And this my friends is called jumping to extreme conclusions.

Can you point to any place Ramo or myself said that women are treated better in the Islamic world than in the West? Or were we merely saying that women have it better under the religion of Islam then they have in states like Iran, which the West seems to think representative of the entire religion? Hmm... that can't be it, can it? It makes too much sense .

quote: sexism isn't racism, but you seemed perfectly willing to pick up on that argument

Where? All I see is you spouting BS hoping that it sticks .

	07-09-2003 04:16									#74
	Increase the size of your Attachments

What you insolent fools do not realize is that they only elected a woman president so somebody expendable would be assasinated. Mwahahahaha.
Quoth the raven, "woo."

	07-09-2003 04:26									#75
	Tired of ads?

Then please Imran, enlighten me as what point you and Ramo are trying to make with regard to Muslim countries and women presidents.

But at least now you admit that women in Muslim countries aren't treated the best. It was a long time coming, but thankyou for agreeing with me.

Imran, the fact is that this thread is about racism; I made a throwaway quote in reference to women and Islam in my first quote, and you decided to pick up on it, and keep going with it.

Of course, I had a part to play; I should have ignored further remarks down this line since they weren't related to the thread topic, but I didn't...

Oh well. It was fun regardless.

And if you thinking I'm spouting BS, believe me, my Malaysian friends wouldn't be impressed. Everything I said about what happens in that country is true; they don't like it, but they have to live with it. Try and have a little sympathy, huh?

	07-09-2003 04:29									#76
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Then please Imran, enlighten me as what point you and Ramo are trying to make with regard to Muslim countries and women presidents.

Reading comprehension is a problem with you, eh? Obviously, countries that have had women leaders treat women fairly well. So to look at Iran and say this is how Muslim women are treated everywhere is utterly foolish. Why? Because other Muslim states have had women leaders, showing that they aren't treated Taliban-like in all Islam.

quote: I made a throwaway quote in reference to women and Islam in my first quote, and you decided to pick up on it

So that means I equate racism = sexism?

Yes, of course the rule is that you MUST stay on topic!

	07-09-2003 04:42									#77
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Imran, my dear boy, you are living in a fantasy world. There is nothing wrong with my reading ability. If you carefully look back, you will find that there is no reference in either your or Ramo's posts about countries that have women leaders treat women well. As you did not post it, I could not read it.

It seems as though you are the one with a comprehension problem my friend.

You just implied there that women are treated well in Pakistan (as they have had a female president). I guess we have different standards on what fair treatment is then.

I originally started off in this thread to refute the argument that Islam will solve racism. I am in awe of your persistence in defence of it Imran.

So let's get back to the original topic; do you agree with rina's position, or were you just spoiling for a good argument tonight?

I hope rina is enjoying the show.

	07-09-2003 04:48									#78
	Put an end to popups!

funniest thread title I've seen in a loooooooong time

	07-09-2003 04:48									#79
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: If you carefully look back, you will find that there is no reference in either your or Ramo's posts about countries that have women leaders treat women well.

If you cannot see that that was obviously implied in those statements then you do have a reading comprehension problem .

quote: I originally started off in this thread to refute the argument that Islam will solve racism.

No, you started off this thread to obviously knock down Islam a peg. After all, why would you talk about women and unbelievers? If you were really trying to refute the argument that Islam will solve racism, your remarks would have been confined to that, wouldn't it?

And, btw, no religion can solve racism, no matter what it is. It is much deeper than that.

	07-09-2003 04:52									#80
	Tired of ads?

quote: I still struggle to find how religious discrimination = racism. They simply aren't the same thing.

On a different note, mathematicians throughout the world recently announced the discovery that two plus two does not in fact equal four, contrary to the supposition of the past several milennia. I find that rather interesting, don't you?
Note that by "interesting," I do not mean, "correct." But it is rather interesting insofar as it proves the extent of our world's drug problem, isn't it? There's so much to know out there and so little time to find it all out.
Mr. Owl says, "woo, woo." Why aren't you woo-ing back, you owl-hater bigot?

	07-09-2003 04:59									#81
	Remove this text

Imran, I'm afraid that you too must then have a problem with reading.

You see, I was not trying to take Islam down a peg in my opening post, yet you imply that this is what I was trying to achieve. Like I said, I was refuting rina's argument, and you decided I meant something else entirely.

If you want to accuse me of this, I suggest you look at your own posts. One could jump to the conclusion that you entered this thread to bring Christianity down a peg.

These smilies are certainly getting a workout tonight.

	07-09-2003 05:21									#82
	Remove this text

quote: I was not trying to take Islam down a peg in my opening post, yet you imply that this is what I was trying to achieve. Like I said, I was refuting rina's argument, and you decided I meant something else entirely.

Then why bring in things totally unrelated to rina's argument? Sexism and dealing with the unreligious are totally unrelated to racism.

quote: One could jump to the conclusion that you entered this thread to bring Christianity down a peg.

I am... bringing it down to a similar peg as you've brought down Islam.

	07-09-2003 05:38									#83
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

OK Imran, I am going to try and explain this once more:

The reference to women was a throwaway remark. You're the one who just said that we're allowed to go off-topic. I guess that's what I did here.

I think it's quite sad that you set out to attack Christianity; despite what you might think my original post was only aimed at disproving what rina wrote, and was not meant to be a damning indictment of Islam.

If it's not too personal a question Imran, would you mind me asking what religion you are?

It was fun arguing with you, but I have to go too bed. It's 1.30 am over here, and I've got mass at 9.00 am to get up to. Have a good night.

	07-09-2003 05:43									#84
	Support Apolyton

quote: If it's not too personal a question Imran, would you mind me asking what religion you are?

I am a Deist. I don't belong to any organized religion.

	07-09-2003 06:16									#85
	Increase Your PM Length

Hmm, I take it the Deist church takes a while to file its tax-exemption forms then.
(the wine's worn off by now, I'm just feeling stupid).

	07-09-2003 06:21									#86
	Re: How to End Racism Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by rina             People must realize that God created all humans from one couple, thus making the entire human race one large extended family. God says:“ O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord who created you from a single soul (Adam), and from him (Adam) He created his wife (Eve); and from the two of them He spread abroad a multitude of men and women” (Qur'an 4:1).

i don't believe in god, none of this is relevent.

quote: Furthermore, we must understand that no race is superior to another. We appreciate a garden having many different flowers because we realize that each adds something to the beauty of the entire arrangement. This is why we do not object to the color of any flower. In a similar way we can see the world as a garden decorated with people of different colors. Let us appreciate that each variety of people contributes something to the spice of life in this world. God says:“ O mankind! We have created you male and female , and have made you nations and tribes that you may know each other. Verily, (start w/this word). The noblest of you in the sight of Allah*, is the most pious (righteous) of you” (Qur'an 49:13).

ignoring the biblical/koran crap again, this is outright bullsh*t. there are differences in the races, no matter how much you want to deny it.

quote:             The noblest are the most obedient to God. Such persons may belong to nay race or country. What really matters is their conduct and behavior. The prophet Mohammad* publicly declared that Arabs are not superior to non-Arabs, and one color is not superior to another. In a day when light-skinned people could not imagine a black person as their leader, the prophet appointed a black person Usaamah, the son of zaid, as a leader.

again, religious crap. it's a good moral system to enstill on a people, but theres no need to make it religious.

quote:             As a result of following these teachings, many people have banished racism from their thoughts and actions. You can still see racial harmony today in the mosques of cosmopolitan cities. You will find people of various colors worshipping together, all with equal status before God. Rich or poor, black or white, kind or pauper all line up side by side to worship. No special preference is given to anyone based on color or social status. The leader in a mosque is appointed for his learning in the religious sciences, regardless of skin color. There is no such concept as a 'black mosque' or 'white mosque'. Islam removes such destructive concepts.

aren't there shi'tte and other mosques? or do they all suicide bomb the same mosque on opposing weeks?

	07-09-2003 06:51									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: If it's not too personal a question Imran, would you mind me asking what religion you are? I am a Deist. I don't belong to any organized religion.

Deist, heretic, heathen -- all the same, right?

	07-09-2003 07:09									#88
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by MrFun Deist, heretic, heathen -- all the same, right?

says the sodomist.

	07-09-2003 07:26									#89
	Tired of ads?

Whoa, there's a religion for sodomy?! Man, where have I been. Wonder what those services are like...woo!

	07-09-2003 09:03									#90
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Japher Who to end racism? - Massive interracial breeding So, get out their and do your civic duty and have sex with other races (not species, we need to keep it clean)... Once we all are browin-ish yellow then we abolish all forms of religion and disban all political parties... Then, we will all be happy.

I have a biology teacher who is asian, black, or white, but I have no idea which. Enough people like that in the world and racism becomes impractical.