07-09-2003 09:19									#91
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quote: Furthermore, we must understand that no race is superior to another.

says you. it's quite clearly evident that east asians are the master race.

	07-09-2003 12:25									#92
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According to the Qur'an, men and women are equal before God; women are not blamed for violating the "forbidden tree," nor is their suffering in pregnancy and childbirth a punishment for that act.
Islam sees a woman, whether single or married, as an individual in her own right, with the right to own and dispose of her property and earnings. A marital gift is given by the groom to the bride for her own personal use, and she may keep her own family name rather than adopting her husband's. Roles of men and women are complementary and collaborative. Rights and responsibilities of both sexes are equitable and balanced in their totality.
Both men and women are expected to dress in a way that is simple, modest and dignified; specific traditions of female dress found in some Muslim countries are often the expression of local customs rather than religious principle. Likewise, treatment of women in some areas of the Muslim world sometimes reflects cultural practices which may be inconsistent, if not contrary, to authentic Islamic teachings.
The messenger of God said:
"The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best in manner and kindest to his wife."
 



Women in Christianity and Islam
Whenever the topic of Islam is brought up among Westerners, it has been my experience that the first objection that immediately springs into their minds is: "But women are so extremely oppressed in Islam."
And, "But women are second class citizens in Islam." For example, they see that Muslim women usually observe modest standards in their clothing and they automatically equate their modesty with oppression.
They appear to feel that freedom is in some way directly proportional to how little clothing one wears, and that oppression is directly proportional to the degree of modesty one exhibits in their clothing. Although this topic does not directly relate to the main topic, still it seems inevitable to touch on this subject even if only very briefly due to it's importance.
The problem is twofold: First of all, those people who make such objections usually only have a very superficial knowledge of what the true teachings of Islam, and secondly, they do not realize what The Bible requires of all believing women.
Well then, what is the Biblical view on these matters? Actually, even in this day and age there still remain traces in Christianity of the common ancestry with Islam with regard to the accepted norms of modest dress for Christian women as ordained by her Creator. We are strangely amazed to find the dress codes observed by Christian nuns is almost the striking similarity it bears to the sort of outfit, which most Muslim women wear. Why is that? Well, although there are quite a number of very pronounced differences between Biblical and Qur'anic laws in this regard, let us start with the

Biblical view:
What the New Testament has to say:
1 Timothy 2:11-14 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
1 Corinthians 11:5-10: "But every woman that prayeth or prophesied with her head uncovered dishonored her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman were not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it were a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch, as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels."
1 Corinthians 11:13: "Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God (with her head) uncovered?"
What the Old Testament has to say:
Genesis 3:12-16 "And the man (Adam) said, the woman (Eve) whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the woman, what is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, the serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."
Leviticus 12:2-5 "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, if a woman have conceived seed, and born a MALE child: then she shall be unclean SEVEN DAYS; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying THIRTY THREE days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled. But if she bear a FEMALE child, then she shall be unclean TWO WEEKS, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying SIXTY SIX days."
Ecclesiastics 7:26-28 "And I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare.... while I was still searching but not finding, I found one upright man among a thousand but not one upright woman among them all".
Leviticus 15:19-30 "And if a woman have an issue (her period/menses), [and] her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever touched her shall be unclean until the even.
And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean. And whosoever touched her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe [himself] in water, and be unclean until the even. And whosoever touched any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe [himself] in water, and be unclean until the even. And if it [be] on [her] bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he touched it, he shall be unclean until the even. And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean. And if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation; all the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her separation: she [shall be] unclean. Every bed whereon she lieth all the days of her issue shall be unto her as the bed of her separation: and whatsoever she sitteth upon shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her separation. And whosoever touched those things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe [himself] in water, and be unclean until the even. But if she were cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And the priest shall offer the one [for] a sin offering, and the other [for] a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness."
SEE ALSO WOMEN IN THE BIBLE

In other words, the Bible teaches us that:
1.Women should learn in silence and subjugation.
2.Women should not teach.
3.Women should not have authority over men but should remain silent.
4.Adam and Eve were not equal in sin. Adam was not deceived but Eve was.
5.Women are commanded to be under obedience to men. God ordained that men should for all time rules over women.
6.Women must keep silent in Churches. It is shameful for them to open their mouths therein. If they have a question they should ask their husbands before going to church and then their husbands will ask for them in the church.
7.A woman should neither pray nor profess with her head uncovered.
8.If a woman prays with her head uncovered then she might as well shave her head.
9.Man was created in the image and glory of God, and Woman was created in the glory of Man, thus Man must have power over her.
10.Any woman who delivers a male baby shall be unclean for one week. But any woman who delivers a female baby shall be unclean for TWO weeks. Thus, females make their mothers DOUBLY unclean as compared to males.
11.While it is possible to find one upright man in every thousand, it is impossible to find even one single upright woman in every thousand.
12.Woman is a snare, her heart is a trap, and her hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but she will ensnare the sinner.
13.If a woman had her period and touches a chair or a bed or anything else then that item immediately becomes unclean. Anyone who then touches those things shall also become unclean. They must then bathe themselves and wash their clothes because they have touched an item that a monstrous woman has touched.
What the canonized saints of Christianity said about women:
"Woman is a daughter of falsehood, a sentinel of Hell, the enemy of peace; through her Adam lost paradise" (St. John Demascene)
"Woman is the instrument which the devil uses to gain possession of our souls" (St. Cyprian)
"Woman is the fountain of the arm of the devil, her voice is the hissing of the serpent" (St. Anthony)
"Woman has the poison of an asp, the malice of a dragon" (St. Gregory)
St. Tertullian, while he was talking to his 'best beloved sisters' in the faith, he said, "Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the Devil's gateway: You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: You are the first deserter of the divine law: You are she who persuaded him whom the devil wasn't valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image, man." Once again, St. Augustine wrote to a friend, "What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman."


Centuries later, St. Thomas Aquinas still considered women as defective, "As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence." (All these quotations can be found in Karen Armstrong's book, The Gospel According to Woman, London: Elm Tree Books, 1986, pp. 52-62. See also Nancy van Vuuren, The Subversion of Women as Practiced by Churches, tch-Hunters, and Other Sexists Philadelphia: Westminster Press pp.28-30.)
Orthodox Jewish men in their daily morning prayer recite, "Blessed be God King of the universe that Thou hasn’t made me a woman." The women, on the other hand, thank God every morning for "making me according to Thy will" (Then a Kendath, "Memories of an Orthodox youth" in Susannah Heschel, Ed. On being a Jewish Feminist, New York: Schocken Books, 1983, pp. 96-97)
According to the Jewish Talmud, "women are exempt from the study of the Torah." In the first century C.E., Rabbi Eliezer said: "If any man teaches his daughter Torah it is as though he taught her lechery" (Leonard J. Swidler, Women in Judaism: the Status of Women in Formative Judaism, Metuchen, N.J: Scarecrow Press, 1976, pp. 83-93)
According to Rabbi Dr. Menachem M. Brayer (Professor of Biblical Literature at Yeshiva University) in his book 'The Jewish woman in Rabbinic literature', it was the custom of Jewish women to go out in public with a head covering which, sometimes, even covered the whole face leaving one eye free (Psychosocial Perspective, Hoboken, N.J: Ktav Publishing House, 1986, p. 239). He quotes some famous ancient Rabbis saying, "It is not like the daughters of Israel to walk out with heads uncovered" and "Cursed be the man who lets the hair of his wife be seen.... a woman who exposes her hair for self-adornment brings poverty." Rabbinic law forbids the recitation of blessings or prayers in the presence of a bareheaded-married woman.
One must ask a simple question here, who is really punished, the man who raped the woman or the woman who was raped? What is to prevent someone from finding the best looking woman in town, raping her, telling everyone about it, and then having the courts force her to be his wife for the rest of her life?
According to Numbers 27:1-11, widows and sisters don't inherit at all. Daughters can inherit only if their deceased father had no sons.

So what is the standpoint of the Qur'an with regard to women? Women are indeed commanded by Allah to cover their heads and wear modest clothing, however, in Islam this is not a sign of denigration or subjugation to men, rather, it is a sign of chastity, modesty, and the fear of God. It also designates this woman to all men who might deal with her that she is to be dealt with respect. This could be compared to the situation in the West when one meets a nun or priest, how the nun's habit and the priest's robes signal those who meet them that this person does not condone vulgarity of speech or evil actions. This is made apparent in the Qur'an in Al-Ahzab:

"… That is closer to their being recognized so that they shall not be abused, and Allah is ever
Forgiving, Merciful" Al-Ahzab (33): 59 (also see Noor (24): 31)
What about the rights of women in Islam?
Are they indeed, as the popular propaganda would have us?
Believe, "second class citizens"? Let us read the Qur'an:
"And they (women) have rights similar to those of men over them in a just manner"
The noble Qur'an, Al-Baqarah (2): 228
"And their Lord has heard them (and He says): Verily! I suffer not the work of any worker, male or female, to be lost. You precede one from another. So those who fled and were driven forth from their homes and suffered damage for my cause, and fought and were slain, verily I shall remit their evil deeds from them and verily I shall bring them into Gardens underneath which rivers flow. A reward from Allah. And with Allah is the fairest of rewards."
The noble Qur'an, A'al-Umran (3): 195.
"And covet not the thing in which Allah has made some of you excel others. Unto men a fortune from that which they have earned, and unto women a fortune from that which they have earned. (Envy not one another) but ask Allah of His bounty. Verily! Allah is Knower of all things." The noble Qur'an, Al-Nissa (4): 32.
"Unto the men (of a family) belongs a share of that which parents and near kindred leave, and unto the women shares of that which parents and near kindred leave, whether it is little or much, a legal share." The noble Qur'an, Al-Nissa (4): 77.
"And whoso does good works, whether of male or female, and he (or she) is a believer, such will enter paradise and they will not be wronged the dint in a date stone."
The noble Qur'an, Al-Nissa (4): 124.
"And the believers, men and women, are protecting friends one of another; they enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and they establish worship and they pay the poor-due, and they obey Allah and His messenger. As for these, Allah will have mercy on them. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise." The noble Qur'an, Al-Tauba (9): 71
"Whosoever does right, whether male or female, and is a believer, him verily we shall quicken with good life, and we shall pay them a recompense in proportion to the best of what they used to do." The noble Qur'an, Al-Nahil (16): 97.
"And of His signs is this: He created for you spouses from yourselves that you might find tranquility in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy. Lo, herein indeed are signs for folk who reflect." The noble Qur'an, Al-Room (30): 21
"Whoso does an ill deed, he will be repaid the like thereof, while whoso does right, whether male or female, and is a believer, (all) such will enter the Garden, where they will be nourished without stint." The noble Qur'an, Mumin (40): 40.
In the Qur'an, both Adam and Eve share the blame for eating from the tree. This can be seen in the Qur'an in such verses as Al-Baqarah (2): 36, Al-A’araf (7): 22-24. They were also both forgiven by God Almighty for this sin. Actually, in one verse of the Qur'an (Taha (20): 121), Adam is specifically blamed.
Islam encourages spouses to take each other's council and to seek mutual agreement in matters, which affect them, for example, in the Qur'an, Al-Bakarah (2): 233 we read:
"Mothers shall suckle their children for two whole years; (that is) for those who wish to complete the suckling. The duty of feeding and clothing nursing mothers in a seemly manner is upon the father of the child. No one should be charged beyond their capacity. A mother should not be made to suffer because of her child, nor should he to whom the child is born (be made to suffer) because of his child.
And on the (father's) heir is incumbent the like of that (which was incumbent on the father). If they desire to wean the child by mutual consent and (after) consultation, it is no sin for them; and if you wish to give your children out to nurse; it is no sin for you, provided that you pay what is due from you in kindness. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is Seer of what you do." husbands are commanded to treat their wives with kindness and respect. In Al-Nissa (4)-19 we read “. But consort with them in kindness, for if you hate them it may happen that you hate a thing wherein Allah has placed much good."

	07-09-2003 13:18									#93
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The story of Adam(P) and Eve(P)
The Biblical concept of God is quite different from the Qur'ânic one. In the Bible, God is described in a human form[2]. He is depicted as one who gets tired and needs rest[3]. God walks in the garden and a man can hide himself from Him and to seek him out from his hiding place, God has to search for him[4]. Like a human being, God is depicted in the Bible as being sorry for some of His decisions, the implication being that he was either ignorant of the consequences or that He is subject to whimsical moods[5]. He is not only jealous, but is often referred to as the God of Israel[6]. Like a human being, God has nostrils, a mouth and dwells in thick darkness[7]. The Qur'ân denies that the similitude of God is like that of man or any of His creation:
And there is none like unto Him. [Qur'ân 112:4]
In the Bible, the God is also afraid of man's power and unity[8]. Such depictions are not only absent in the Qur'ân, but are regarded as sacrilegious to the Majesty of God.
there are major variations even in stories common to both the Qur'ân and the Bible. The similarities between the two versions are that both books say Adam and Eve were the first human beings to be created. They lived in a garden and were permitted to eat from any tree except one. They succumbed to the temptations of Satan and ate from the tree, and they were sent to live on earth.
The following are the major differences between the two accounts.
1. The Bible says it was a tree of knowledge, the Qur'ân makes no such mention. According to the Qur'ân, man is inherently inspired with the knowledge of good and evil and Adam(P) was taught the nature of all things, even before his disobedience[18].
2. In the Biblical account, woman carries the burden of that mistake and in punishment God multiplied her agony in childbirth. There is not a single verse in the Qur'ân which suggests or implies in any way that the woman bears primary responsibility for that mistake. Pregnancy is described in the Qur'ân as noble and praiseworthy[19].
3. In the Bible, Eve(P) is tempted by Satan who takes the form of a serpent. The Qur'ân says Satan tempted both of them and there is no mention at all of serpent, viper or snake[20].
4. After their disobedience, the Bible does not at all mention that Adam(P) and Eve(P) repented, whereas the Qur'ân emphasizes this point. According to the Qur'ân, they repented and God forgave them[21].
5. The Bible suggests that their coming to live on earth was a sort of punishment, while the Qur'ân says that was God's plan even before He created them[22].
The above differences have very serious doctrinal implications. The Biblical tree of knowledge implies that man was perfect before eating from the tree, but his nature changed after eating from it. According to the Qur'ân, man being a blending of clay and the soul has always been an imperfect being. While to the Christian, the problem is how to regain that previous perfection in order to get salvation and come back to Paradise, the Qur'ân expects man to have some lapses but the issue is whether he sincerely tries his best to fulfill the injunctions of God. While the Christian faith might admit the doctrine of original sin, the Qur'ân says every child is born pure and is only responsible for his own deeds. Whether as a result of original sin there must be bloodshed to reconcile man with God, the Qur'ân says God does not require bloodshed to forgive. And the idea that woman was responsible for the fall of man has implications in the position and status of woman in society.
The Biblical concept of prophethood is also radically different from the one presented in the Qur'ân. Whereas the Qur'ân depicts prophets as the best model of piety and moral uprightness, see Qur'ân 21:27 and 22:52, in the Biblical version almost all prophets seem to commit major sins in faith and moral standing. Some of the shameful deeds attributed to prophets include Aaron's(P) idol worship[9], Solomon's(P) inclination towards idolatry[10] and Jacob's(P) deceitful tricks towards his father Isaac(P)[11]. Abraham(P) had either contracted an incestuous marriage with Sarah, or he was simply an ignoble liar[12]. The drunken Lot(P) committed incest with his daughters and he is also reported to have given out his daughters to the lustful men of Gomorrah and invited them to do with his daughters as they pleased[13]. David(P) was not only a peeping Tom, but actually committed adultery with the wife of Uriah, and had her husband killed[14]. Judas committed incest with his daughter-in-law. Pharez and Zarah who were the result of that incest are honoured as the great grandfathers and great-grandmothers of Jesus[15]. It would appear as if God blesses Judas for his incestuous crime. Jesus(P) is reported to have rebuffed his own mother when he said,"Woman, what have I to do with thee?"[16] The Qur'ân accuses no Prophet(P) of any of the above charges.

There are also creedal differences concerning belief in the hereafter, the concept of salvation and orientation towards life[17].

	07-09-2003 15:15									#94
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quote: but most of the women I know wouldn't like the 'equality' that would afforded to them under a Christian society

I wonder if you asked women in that Christian society, whether they would like to live as women now live.

Works both ways, Imran. The grass isn't always greener.

	07-09-2003 19:59									#95
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According to Islam, man and woman are halves of the whole. An aspect of Allah is in each of these equal halves, which when united through matrimony, create an almost divine whole; the closest humans may become to God.

	08-09-2003 10:02									#96
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quote: I wonder if you asked women in that Christian society, whether they would like to live as women now live.

100% guarentee they'd rather like to live as women now live in the modern, secular societies.

	08-09-2003 10:21									#97
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the way to end racism is too kill all those different from you every year. that way, when we slowly evolve differences again, they are weeded out before they become prevelent

	15-09-2003 16:15									#98
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Land without nation to nation without land.

This is the situation in Israel since 1948
http://www.duke.org/

http://www.alhewar.com/articlesandopinions.htm

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com

http://64.226.129.19/pmw/index.asp

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/C...files/frame.htm

	15-09-2003 16:30									#99
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Lots of credible sources. Noone ever would accuse eg http://www.duke.org/ of being run by stupid racists.

	15-09-2003 16:31									#100
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terminating all inferior races will end racism forever

and that includes people with recessive characteristics that don't show but will in later generations

	15-09-2003 16:56									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Who to end racism? - Massive interracial breeding So, get out their and do your civic duty and have sex with other races (not species, we need to keep it clean)... Once we all are browin-ish yellow then we abolish all forms of religion and disban all political parties... Then, we will all be happy.

I disagree. Diversity is what makes our world interesting. A massive interracial breeding would only hide the problem, not solve it; it would make the whole world a big racist society, waiting for the "inferior" aliens to appear

Racism can be dealt only understanding each other, learning from each other and ultimately accepting diversity (in skin colour, religion, believes, etc).

	15-09-2003 16:59									#102
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so you advocate a world that has racism just because it is more "interesting"?

talk about the misanthropic nature of a multi-cultural society.

	15-09-2003 17:06									#103
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Where did I say that racism is interesting? I said that having more races is interesting.

I said that racism can be cured through education and mutual understanding, not through massive interracial breeding.

	15-09-2003 17:14									#104
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more races leads to racism

more races are interesting

--> a world with racism is more interesting and therefore a better world to you, despite the racism

	15-09-2003 17:23									#105
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So you think that if we all had the same race, same hair colour, same religion, same beliefs, same sex, same thoughts, same hobbies, etc etc than all our problems would be solved?

Well, maybe, but Earth would be a very-very boring place then.

Edit: (to make it clear): I don't believe that more races automatically brings racism.

	15-09-2003 17:25									#106
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no need to hide your racism, it's quite obvious.

you want toher races so you can feel superior to something.

	15-09-2003 17:25									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion terminating all inferior races will end racism forever

woohoo

	15-09-2003 17:28									#108
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glad you agree, MrGay

	15-09-2003 17:30									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion no need to hide your racism, it's quite obvious. you want toher races so you can feel superior to something.

Since when are you such a fine phsycologist ?

I've said what my opinion is. It is quite clear. I am not a racist and I disapprove racism. I believe this is quite obvious and I don't buy your sh*ty troll.

This discussion is over for me. I will come back when I'll have intelligent people to talk with.

	15-09-2003 17:33									#110
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So calling the opposite side of an argument stupid is now the ultimate way to get out of a debate one's losing?

	15-09-2003 17:36									#111
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quote: glad you agree, MrGay

Chilarious

	15-09-2003 17:37									#112
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quote: says you. it's quite clearly evident that east asians are the master race.

Only if you determine superiority via math test scores.

	15-09-2003 17:44									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: glad you agree, MrGay Chilarious

you'll be my man for the next chilympic games

	15-09-2003 17:48									#114
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quote: So calling the opposite side of an argument stupid is now the ultimate way to get out of a debate one's losing?

I think both arguements are stupid, there thread finished I win.... 3 cheers for me!

	15-09-2003 17:51									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion So calling the opposite side of an argument stupid is now the ultimate way to get out of a debate one's losing?

Sorry for that. I should have said mature, not intelligent. I have no reason to believe that you are not intelligent. However, you are cerlainly not mature. Either that or you are trolling. Either way, thank you but I'm not curious to continue the "debate".

Congratulations for winning the "debate"

	15-09-2003 17:53									#116
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Hey I won, I called all three sides stupid, where is my reward?

	15-09-2003 17:55									#117
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we know what you want for reward is ass, so sorry there lad(y)

	15-09-2003 17:58									#118
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Just out of curiosity, how exactly are Jewish Conspirators like the ones mentioned on that Duke site ostensibly controlling the President? I don't think anyone can get away with threatening the president, and the way he fundraises he hardly needs their money. Presumptively blackmail/extortion would work, but I can't imagine Bush is enough of a deviant in bed or financially for that kind of plan to be effective. I haven't been able to find any mention of how exactly the Shadow Israelite Cabal is supposed to work, though to be fair I haven't really searched through the literature that exhaustively...

	15-09-2003 18:02									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion we know what you want for reward is ass, so sorry there lad(y)

I get this strange feeling that you are homophobic and/or don't like me... dunno just a feeling...

	15-09-2003 18:49									#120
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Let's NOT get personal here... or some people won't be posting for a while...

SO JUST CHILL...