08-09-2003 19:20									#61
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Even with 9-11 and 3,000 dead Americans, you still don't realize how dangerous terrorism is.

Is it more dangerous than cigarette smoking? (400,000 dead Americans per year)

Is it more dangerous than eating unhealthy food? (300,000 dead Americans per year)

Is it more dangerous than driving? (20,000 dead Americans per year)

Is it more dangerous than golfing when there's a thunderstorm nearby? (2,000 dead Americans per year)

Is it more dagerous than working? (5,000 dead Americans per year)

Is it more dagerous than alcohol? (100,000 dead Americans per year)

Is it more dagerous than crime? (20,000 dead Americans per year)

Is it more dangerous than natural gas? (600 dead Americans per year)

	08-09-2003 19:22									#62
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quote: Is it more dangerous than cigarette smoking? (400,000 dead Americans per year) Is it more dangerous than eating unhealthy food? (300,000 dead Americans per year) Is it more dangerous than driving? (20,000 dead Americans per year) Is it more dagerous than working? (5,000 dead Americans per year) Is it more dagerous than alcohol? (100,000 dead Americans per year) Is it more dagerous than crime? (20,000 dead Americans per year) Is it more dangerous than natural gas? (600 dead Americans per year)

You can't sue terrorists.

	08-09-2003 19:22									#63
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Its obvious the diplomat's posts are on the same childish level as Bush's speech.

Major powers won't help the Bush Administration for one simple reason. It's good their operation is failing. It will teach America a lesson about the perils of unilateralism.

If the Bush Administration loses power as a result, so much the better. It has few international friends and is a threat to world peace and stability. The Bush Administration is a far bigger threat than terrorism.

	08-09-2003 19:24									#64
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quote: Originally posted by oedo but what has the war on Iraq to do with this?

Why do you think there are FOREIGN terrorist groups in Iraq trying to blow up American and even UN facilities? Because the terrorists know that if they can push American forces out of Iraq, and Iraq falls back into tyranny, then they wil be able to use Iraq for their purposes. On the other hand, if the US succeeds in stabilizing Iraq, then the terrorists lose a potential ally.

That is why winning in Iraq is so crucial and why it is most definitely part of the war on terror. If Iraq is stable and free, it will an ally of the US, but if Iraq slides back into tyranny, it will be a potential ally of terrorists.

	08-09-2003 19:25									#65
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Is it more dagerous than working? (5,000 dead Americans per year)

. . . which is what the people in the Pentagon and the World Trade Center were doing on 9/11 before the attack.

	08-09-2003 19:29									#66
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun . . . which is what the people in the Pentagon and the World Trade Center were doing on 9/11 before the attack.

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

	08-09-2003 19:31									#67
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quote: I'd have supported a war which was supported by the UN undertaken by a genuine international coallition of forces willing to work towards rebuilding Iraq.

A good post-war plan could have done it without UN support or a genuine coalition. When we went in, you didn't know what plan they had for after the war. I certainly didn't. There is value in not giving out your plan to the enemy.

quote: Here's the same question I ask for every Bush's speech: What was the use ?

It was a ritual whereby Bush gave the American people a short description of on what he's going to be spending their money and a price tag. He was going over the head of Congress (who appropriates the funds and could make life hell for him) straight to the taxpayers. A good strategy.

	08-09-2003 19:31									#68
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never mind

	08-09-2003 19:35									#69
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quote: Originally posted by DanS A good post-war plan could have done it without UN support or a genuine coalition. When we went in, you didn't know what plan they had for after the war. I certainly didn't.

Actually, they said what their plan was before the war. They planned to decapitate Iraq, and leave everything else in place. Then put some new "democratic" leaders on top of the old Ba'athist state and voila. They were genuinely surprised at the complete collapse of the Iraqi state. MtG was regularly blasting them before the war for not having a realistic plan for what to do after winning the war.

	08-09-2003 19:39									#70
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quote: Actually, they said what their plan was before the war. They planned to decapitate Iraq, and leave everything else in place. Then put some new "democratic" leaders on top of the old Ba'athist state and voila.

There were only hints. Not a complete plan revealed.

quote: They were genuinely surprised at the complete collapse of the Iraqi state.

So was I. So am I.

	08-09-2003 19:40									#71
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quote: Originally posted by DanS When we went in, you didn't know what plan they had for after the war. I certainly didn't.

That was the problem, and this was a big issue in the UK, which was what MikeH and IW were refering to. We never got firm details for a plan after the war, and what we did get we didn't necessarily agree with. That was a large part why I was against the war too. We did not go in knowing what the point of it was, or how we were going to stabalise it afterwards. If we had known that, and that we could stabalise it, we would have been more pro-war.

	08-09-2003 19:41									#72
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Given that we couldn't even convince the security council to back up their own resolutions, how long would it take to get agreement on a post-war plan?

	08-09-2003 19:42									#73
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quote: We did not go in knowing what the point of it was

Well that was the problem and is a principled objection. If there was a good post war plan, you still would have had that problem.

	08-09-2003 19:42									#74
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quote: Originally posted by DanS There were only hints. Not a complete plan revealed. So was I. So am I.

Because they didn't have a plan.

Why?

	08-09-2003 19:45									#75
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Even with 9-11 and 3,000 dead Americans, you still don't realize how dangerous terrorism is.

Uh-oh, another one who fell for the line that Iraq was connected with the 9-11 attack.

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Why do you think there are FOREIGN terrorist groups in Iraq trying to blow up American and even UN facilities?

Actually, I'd like to ask you why there are foreign terrorists in Iraq blowing things up? What has brought them there?

Does this mean that those who warned that an invasion of Iraq would be an al Qaeda recruiter's dream come true were ... right? That's what it sounds like, anyway.

	08-09-2003 19:45									#76
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Well, they did have a plan, but they didn't have any Plan Bs. We won a very swift victory and there weren't the problems that we expected (refugees, food and health crisis). We incorrectly expected to have some time to plan according to the circumstances.

	08-09-2003 19:47									#77
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Well, they did have a plan, but they didn't have any Plan Bs. We won a very swift victory and there weren't the problems that we expected (refugees, food and health crisis). We incorrectly expected to have some time to plan according to the circumstances.

I must bow to you here. You are correct.

	08-09-2003 19:47									#78
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Well that was the problem and is a principled objection. If there was a good post war plan, you still would have had that problem.

If you have a good post-war plan, you have a credible alternative to Saddam. If you don't have a credible alternative to Saddam, there isn't any point wasting lives taking him out if the default replacement is as bad or worse or results in a quagmire of political mess and Afghanistanesque warlord infighting. Without a good reconstruction plan, it'd be like solving a bee's nest with a hammer. ie. Dont.

	08-09-2003 19:49									#79
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Look, whatever Caveman Bush says, just believe him, no questions asked, ok?

	08-09-2003 19:58									#80
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quote: In other words, it's better to spread violence, death, and destruction in your neck of the woods so we can be safe and comfie in ours.

ie, American foreign policy.

Seriously, hasn't this usually been the case (without the bombastics). Better to fight proxy wars overseas than to have the US suffer a direct attack during the Cold War, etc.

Good idea by Bush to go over Congress' heads directly to the people, but Bush is no Reagan, I'm not sure how well this will work (FYI, the most successful 'Going over the head' tactic was when Reagan went on TV and convinced the American people to pass his tax cuts, who promptly badgered their Congressment turning a defeat into a huge victory for the new President).

	08-09-2003 20:09									#81
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quote: Laugh all you want, but your reaction is exactly why Dems will lose 2004. Even with 9-11 and 3,000 dead Americans, you still don't realize how dangerous terrorism is.

quote: Why do you think there are FOREIGN terrorist groups in Iraq trying to blow up American and even UN facilities? Because the terrorists know that if they can push American forces out of Iraq, and Iraq falls back into tyranny, then they wil be able to use Iraq for their purposes. On the other hand, if the US succeeds in stabilizing Iraq, then the terrorists lose a potential ally. That is why winning in Iraq is so crucial and why it is most definitely part of the war on terror. If Iraq is stable and free, it will an ally of the US, but if Iraq slides back into tyranny, it will be a potential ally of terrorists.

you just stated a reason why civil stateīs building is necessary in Iraq. but this doesnīt answer my question. you mentioned 9-11 and 3000 dead Americans. but you failed in explaining, why the the attack on Iraq was necessary because of that. there hasnīt been found a link between saddam and al queda, yet. and there wonīt be found a link for a simple reason: there is none!
you just mix up two events which have nothing at all to do with each other. Bush is doing the same thing. the terror in Iraq is a consequence of the war. itīs illegitimate to justify a war with the consequences only the war itself has caused. the war in Iraq didnīt prevent terror. contrary, wars like the one in Iraq cause terrorism. and even with 9-11 and 3.000 dead Americans, you still don't seem to realize how dangerous terrorism is.

	08-09-2003 20:19									#82
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3,000 Americans did not die because of the 9/11 massacre. Some of those people (not including the murderers) were not Americans.

	08-09-2003 20:49									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: In other words, it's better to spread violence, death, and destruction in your neck of the woods so we can be safe and comfie in ours. ie, American foreign policy. Seriously, hasn't this usually been the case (without the bombastics). Better to fight proxy wars overseas than to have the US suffer a direct attack during the Cold War, etc.

Except the difference is that this is carried out based on the notion of perceived threats vs. the very real threats posed by communist expansion.

And judging by the rock-solid intelligence that we relied on in pursuing this venture, I have a hard time advocating this doctrine in any future pursuits. Simply pointing the finger and saying "you're a threat" is a shady case for war.

	08-09-2003 20:49									#84
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quote: Well, they did have a plan, but they didn't have any Plan Bs. We won a very swift victory and there weren't the problems that we expected (refugees, food and health crisis). We incorrectly expected to have some time to plan according to the circumstances.

We might've had a plan, but we certainly didn't have a well-thought out plan, nor one subject to public debate and scrutiny. Shrub's "plan" (or to be more precise, Rummy and Wolfie's plan) consisted of taking out Saddam and putting Chalabi in his place, and hoping that he could maintain authority over Iraq - and to hell with the very substantial objections from the intelligence community.

	08-09-2003 20:50									#85
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learn to quote, Jac

	08-09-2003 20:51									#86
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Bush gave a speech last night?

He should of given it at half time.

Was the speech before or after the Texans beat the Dolphins?

	08-09-2003 21:23									#87
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we're not in a war of survival against the terrorists.
we're in a war of survival against the dry rot of party politics that is ruining our country far more thoroughly and effectively than any angry muslim ever could with a jumbo jet.

we've had twelve years of botched party politics and nothing but sabotage against our country by both the democrats and the republicans.

i'm not scared of an angry muslim. i don't see why we should be. they're a threat, yes, but they're not as dark or as insidious, wolves in sheeps clothing like our great president, his predecessor, and everybody under the capitol's magnificent rotunda.

but don't worry, american will trudge along, as it always will. i'm just pissed that my generation be stuck with the massive bill that the baby boomers have run up.

===

you're right, it's a piss poor reason not to go to war just because you don't have a good exit strategy.

however, it's a piss poor way to run a war and win a peace.

	08-09-2003 21:30									#88
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quote: Except the difference is that this is carried out based on the notion of perceived threats vs. the very real threats posed by communist expansion.

One (such as che or pick-a-Eurcom ) can easily say that many of our proxy wars during the Cold War were against 'percieved' threats as well, such as Chile, Nicaragua, etc.

	08-09-2003 21:40									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Its obvious the diplomat's posts are on the same childish level as Bush's speech. Major powers won't help the Bush Administration for one simple reason. It's good their operation is failing. It will teach America a lesson about the perils of unilateralism. If the Bush Administration loses power as a result, so much the better. It has few international friends and is a threat to world peace and stability. The Bush Administration is a far bigger threat than terrorism.

I agree with that, Horse, except I think that if the rest of the world allows the US to become isolated, it becomes an even greater danger.

	08-09-2003 22:29									#90
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The speech was classic Bush: well writen and presented, ful of "stirring and memorable phrases", consistent in making the claims the admin. makes, and in the end, empty and meaningless and very short on the truth.

Bush could claim accurately that the war in Afghanistan was a serious blow to Al Qaeda (It's a war on Al Qaeda, NOT terrorism for the millionth time). The War in Iraq was not a war of necessity, did nothing to weaken Al Qaeda or lower its capabiities and has not made American one iota safer. t is the result of the Democratic Domino theory of the neo-cons, with their Trotskyte belief in the eternal revolution (Capitalist this time) and our need to export it. Sadly, this idea is as usefull as the original domino theory was.