10-09-2003 19:21									#1
	More troops NOT needed in Iraq. Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

From Reuters

'"I have my doubts... whether increasing the number of soldiers currently there, regardless of who they are provided by, would mean a definite improvement in security," Schroeder told the German parliament in a debate on the 2004 draft budget.


"I believe that those, also in the United States, who say what we really need is the training of Iraqi police and the training of Iraqi military are right," he said. '


So Rumsfeld was right, according to Gerhard Schroeder. Very interesting.

	10-09-2003 19:24									#2
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and Shinseki, veteran of peacekeeping operations, is wrong.

or that's what we're supposed to think.

	10-09-2003 19:25									#3
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I guess that's whey we were told to expect an 18 month depolyment towards the beginning of next year. That would be on top of the 7 month deployment we are about to finish in the next few weeks.

	10-09-2003 19:30									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I guess that's whey we were told to expect an 18 month depolyment towards the beginning of next year. That would be on top of the 7 month deployment we are about to finish in the next few weeks.

Actually thats caused by the fact that we dont have enough troops in the amy to maintain the CURRENT force level in Iraq, not necessarily to increase the force levels.

	10-09-2003 19:30									#5
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actually thats typical diplomacy.
shreder takes something ramsfield and agrees with it thus denying washingtons requests by washngtons request

namely: US wants coutnries sending their troops, germany sais: we agree with you that whats important is to train the iraquis

	10-09-2003 19:32									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed and Shinseki, veteran of peacekeeping operations, is wrong. or that's what we're supposed to think.

Shinseki was a smart guy. But the guys on the ground - Abuzaid and Sanchez (our diversity is our strength ) dont seem to think they need MORE troops now. They were apparently very insistent on UN support to help MAINTAIN troop levels.

	10-09-2003 19:32									#7
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 actually thats typical diplomacy. shreder takes something ramsfield and agrees with it thus denying washingtons requests by washngtons request namely: US wants coutnries sending their troops, germany sais: we agree with you that whats important is to train the iraquis

Yep.

	10-09-2003 19:32									#8
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Actually what this says is that Germany is run by jackasses who still want to cover their tracks.

	10-09-2003 19:35									#9
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Actually thats caused by the fact that we dont have enough troops in the amy to maintain the CURRENT force level in Iraq, not necessarily to increase the force levels.

Rumsfeild has been saying one thing very publically and commanders have been saying the opposite within the ranks for a while now. I guess in the end though, the top dog will get what he wants.

	10-09-2003 19:35									#10
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"Cover their tracks"?

What do you mean? They don't want to clean up your mess that they opposed in the first place. Why would they?

	10-09-2003 19:35									#11
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To Cuba!

	10-09-2003 19:36									#12
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 actually thats typical diplomacy. shreder takes something ramsfield and agrees with it thus denying washingtons requests by washngtons request namely: US wants coutnries sending their troops, germany sais: we agree with you that whats important is to train the iraquis

well yeah, i agree, but he can hardly then go and say the US is making a mess of it, the UN was bombed cause the US didnt send enough troops or anything like that.

Besides, training Iraqis is something we VERY much do need. If germany will help with that it will be much appreciated. German troops are also expanding their role in Afghanistan - they may not have many available anyway. We need essentially 15,000 troops in January, and another 10000 to 20000 by spring. Turkey alone is talking about 10,000 troops, and India, Bangladesh, and Pakistan can make up the rest. By spring the political situation should be more advanced, and the possibilty of Russian, Arab and even French troops becomes real.

	10-09-2003 19:37									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Rumsfeild has been saying one thing very publically and commanders have been saying the opposite within the ranks for a while now. I guess in the end though, the top dog will get what he wants.

IIUC the senior commanders have been saying Rumsfield is wrong to not go to the UN and ensure we have troops to maintain the rotation - not saying a higher number would improve security.

	10-09-2003 19:38									#14
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he can say US messed the place up and is responsible for everything
just us/uk went in.

	10-09-2003 19:38									#15
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The UN was deliberately left with very low security. They wanted to be seen as open and friendly. I don't know how anyone could say that was the US's fault but if they did they'd be a jackass.

Agree about training.

	10-09-2003 19:39									#16
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH "Cover their tracks"? What do you mean? They don't want to clean up your mess that they opposed in the first place. Why would they?

As far as i know the German govt has never denied that Iraq was a mess before March 2003, and has accepted that recontructing it is the worlds problem, not that of the US alone. They have disagreed with the limited UN role the US has proposed, but that is under discussion.

	10-09-2003 19:40									#17
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Rumsfeld wants to save money for the Stryker equipped units he is pushing for. More to the point one of the main objections to the new units is that they involve fewer troops. That might be OK to fight but looks short handed for follow up peacekeeping.

Rummy seems to have moved on from Iraq to the next issue on his agenda and forget what the guys who have to deal with the situation want, they aren't in Washington.

	10-09-2003 19:41									#18
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quote: Actually what this says is that Germany is run by jackasses who still want to cover their tracks.

what he means is that the germans weren't with us before, and thus are against us. they're not our friends, and with friends like that, who needs enemies?

i think this is when i go:
USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!

and then post a picture of britney.

	10-09-2003 19:43									#19
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Fischer already promised help (money) for Iraq, but no troops. I think the core of the problem is domestic politics. Even when there´s a new UN resolution for Iraq and basic agreement that more help is needed, Schroeder knows that it is unpopular to sent soldiers into the country, so he tries to get around this. Plus, he always said that he don´t want to sent them so the opposition here would use it against him if he changes his opinion now (although some opposition leaders would agree with German troops in Iraq).

And to be fair, Germany does help much in Afghanistan, more then other European countries.

	10-09-2003 19:45									#20
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Rumsfeld wants to save money for the Stryker equipped units he is pushing for. More to the point one of the main objections to the new units is that they involve fewer troops. That might be OK to fight but looks short handed for follow up peacekeeping.

well yeah, but thats likely to be true for any possible configuration of the US army. Does Shinseki really want masses of light infantry , who would be second rate at conventional warfare, just for peacekeeping? If the US is going to maintain a dedicatged peacekeeping force, we need to recruit, train and organize them on that basis - I saw a report from Baquba that the US troops there (1st armored?) dont speak Arabic, and are coming to despise the locals. We need guys (and gals) with language and cultural training, MP/Civil affairs training, as well as some light infantry training. Who are recruited with the expectation that they will spend most of their time deployed overseas. A cross between a military force and the foreign service. A peacekeeping corps.

	10-09-2003 19:48									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: Actually what this says is that Germany is run by jackasses who still want to cover their tracks. what he means is that the germans weren't with us before, and thus are against us. they're not our friends, and with friends like that, who needs enemies? i think this is when i go: USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! and then post a picture of britney.

Just another jackass in the herd of jackasses.
They were all for it at the start, just like the frog-eating French.
Ming is a jackass, but even he knows about Germany and France.




(Bastard :lol

	10-09-2003 19:49									#22
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Fischer already promised help (money) for Iraq, but no troops. I think the core of the problem is domestic politics. Even when there´s a new UN resolution for Iraq and basic agreement that more help is needed, Schroeder knows that it is unpopular to sent soldiers into the country, so he tries to get around this. Plus, he always said that he don´t want to sent them so the opposition here would use it against him if he changes his opinion now (although some opposition leaders would agree with German troops in Iraq). And to be fair, Germany does help much in Afghanistan, more then other European countries.

I see Germany trying to achieve reconciliation with the US, while constrained by domestic politics.

I just found the particular statement striking, in view of the US debate over troop levels. While i dont expect Schroeder to follow US politics in detail, Id be surprised if he wasnt aware of the debate.

	10-09-2003 19:51									#23
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quote: Just another jackass in the herd of jackasses. They were all for it at the start, just like the frog-eating French. Ming is a jackass, but even he knows about Germany and France. (Bastard :lol

eh? are you referring to me?

i'll have you know i wasn't born out of wedlock.

	10-09-2003 19:58									#24
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No. Ming's a bastard. Old news to him.

	10-09-2003 20:16									#25
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Ming on rakastajani?

	10-09-2003 21:07									#26
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark IIUC the senior commanders have been saying Rumsfield is wrong to not go to the UN and ensure we have troops to maintain the rotation - not saying a higher number would improve security.

Senior commanders do not publicly contradict SecDef or POTUS any time prior to their retirement parties.

	10-09-2003 21:11									#27
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I see POTUS but read POTTY.

	10-09-2003 21:35									#28
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Senior commanders do not publicly contradict SecDef or POTUS any time prior to their retirement parties.

not publicly, but the story in the WaPo the other day is that they went straight to Powell (funny, they all seem to know Powell personally ) and Powell went to the White House with their backing for going to the UN. Story said Wolfie was upset, Wolfie said he was copacetic with the UN as long as there was US command, Rummy made his usual snarky remarks about journalists hyping a non-story.

	10-09-2003 22:51									#29
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quote: I see Germany trying to achieve reconciliation with the US, while constrained by domestic politics.

Trying to achieve reconciliation?

quote: US has failed in Iraq, says Fischer 10 September 2003 BERLIN - German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer asserted Wednesday that US policy in Iraq had failed while calling for German-American ties to be redefined on the basis of equal partners. "The American domino theory under which a liberated Iraq was supposed to stabilise the Middle East and democratise one country after another has not proven right," said Fischer in an interview with the news magazine Stern. He added: "The decisive question now is whether a strategy which has not worked will be replaced by one that can." Fischer said Germany wanted a swift handover of sovereignty in Baghdad to Iraqi nationals and the United Nations. Moderate Arab and Islamic states must also be involved in stabilising Iraq, he said. European states would hammer out a new plan for Iraq within the coming two months, Fischer said without giving any further details. While insisting transatlantic ties remained important, Fischer said in a separate speech to parliament that things would have to change between Berlin and Washington. "This means we must approach one another as partners," said Fischer, adding that Germany needed to hold a fundamental debate about the future of transatlantic ties. Berlin would insist on a new multilateralism in global politics, said the minister. Ties between Germany and the United States have soured over the Iraq war which German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder and Fischer strongly opposed.

http://www.expatica.com/germanymain...,&item_id=34115

It's the same old bullshit. Declare a policy failed after it has hardly begun.

	10-09-2003 23:46									#30
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If it was a great success the US wouldn´t go to the UN now.