11-09-2003 21:47									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor And this is why California is probably the best State in the US. Are you converting your latinos into heathens as well ?

Slowly but surely.

	11-09-2003 21:49									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Whoooooosh! Yet another comment goes flying over Boris' head.

Oh right, try playing it off as something other than what it was...

Admit you assumed he was one of those ungodly gay atheists and were wrong.

	11-09-2003 21:56									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh That is interesting because Christianity is almost directly opposite in viewpoint - that we are all flawed. Do you honestly believe that the vast majority of huminity are 'good' inside? I don't I think most people are pretty much out for themselves.

How horribly cynical. I can't imagine most Christians agreeing with this. Do you honestly think most people are bad inside?

Nobody said "perfect"--of course, every human being is "flawed" in the sense that nobody acts 100% rightly 100% of the time. Everyone is prone to bad thoughts and inconsiderate deeds.

But I agree that I think most people are, in the core, basically decent and will be generous and altruistic to others when called upon to do so. Considering how often I've seen people responding to disasters with outpourings of support and help, I have to say the evidence shows people are capable of great altruism.

Certainly, there's a lot of greed and stupidity in the world, but I don't think it outweighs the goodness and generosity in the world. If it did, I think we'd be living in a far darker world than we do.

	11-09-2003 22:38									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild With no God or gods, it falls down to us to strive to be better than what we currently are.

"God needs the people themselves to save the world."
-Oscar Romero

	11-09-2003 22:44									#65
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What if I don't want to save the world? What if I just want to sit in my own squalar?

	11-09-2003 22:46									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin What if I don't want to save the world? What if I just want to sit in my own squalar?

You could pick up a dictionary and learn to spell "squalor" properly.

	11-09-2003 22:47									#67
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But then that would be trying to improve the world.

	11-09-2003 22:50									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Oh right, try playing it off as something other than what it was... Admit you assumed he was one of those ungodly gay atheists and were wrong.

It was supposed to point out that calling someone a 'fvcking lunatic' for saying what the believe in is not nice. Just because their views aren't mainstream doesn't mean they should be insulted for holding them. Thinking gay sex is wrong is a matter of opinon, just like you might think christianity (or whatever) is wrong. My Fun's religious beliefs have nothing to do with it.

	11-09-2003 23:02									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild How about "Do to others what you'd have others to do you"? Or be a nice, happy person that cares about other people? Try to leave this world better than when you entered it? Do the least harm possible?

Only the first statement is not dependent on another definition, ie. 'nice', 'happy', 'better', 'leat harm' etc. The first one is fair enough as a definition though, but what makes you think that other people want the same things out of life as you do?

quote: How does a religious person define good? It's Plato all over again. Is something morally right because God says so or do morals (goodness) exist independent of God? If it's the first, then the religious definition of good is baseless and down to the whim of God, which removes moral authority. If it's the second, then God isn't the source of morals and athiests are just as free to call upon that independent moral (good) guide as believers are.

Do you mean that you think morals are somehow transcendant? That they are not manufactured, but fixed laws of nature? hmmmm. I had always thought the atheist viewpoint would be that they come from man (e.g. a consequence of evolution - everyone benefits if we have a code to order ourselves by, so it is evolutionarily programmed into us).

I have no problem with morality being the 'whim' of God.

	11-09-2003 23:03									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith You could pick up a dictionary and learn to spell "squalor" properly.

Do you mean 'squalour'?

	11-09-2003 23:12									#71
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I don't have a problem with Christianity per se, but I do have a problem with certain sects that have warped it almost as badly as Bin Ladin has warped Islam. I think that the greatest draw of Jesus whether he was the son of God or not, was that he preached about inclusion of all people into his religion, and that people should love and tolerate others.

I think that some Christians have lost sight of this, and those Christians are the ones that I disagree with the most. I personally feel that Jerry Fallwell is one of those christians, and that Liberty University to me is the Christian equivalent of the madrassas (pro-taliban religious schools in pakistan), in the fact that they both teach intolerance, ignorance, and that as long as you are doing God's work that the ends justifies the means.

While Fallwell is no Bin ladin in any shape, form, or fashion; I think his work could lay the foundation for a wacko like Bin Ladin, just as the Muslim Clerics that came before Bin ladin.

	11-09-2003 23:14									#72
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The problem with the Golden Rule is that it gives sexual masochists free rein.
Anyway, the doctrine of the Christian faith in general, if any such broad proclamation can be made, is that we collectively are madmen. We do not know why we are here, we cannot see where we are going, and we will not make it "without the crutch." Why do you need to go without the crutch? Are you going to get a prize for going it alone? How many people stand in awe of your wisdom, that you don't believe in anything? In short, what do you stand to gain by your pride? Self-esteem? Self-esteem is not related to pride; even despair and self-loathing are a kind of pride, because pride is the refusal of outside influence of any kind on the unwarranted grounds that all else is inferior to the way you wish it. If you think you can stand alone you are mistaken; if you don't know that you can but want to try anyway for the sake of self-glorification, you're just frigging nuts. Which is not to say I argue for Christianity so much as against atheism...

	11-09-2003 23:16									#73
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quote: It was supposed to point out that calling someone a 'fvcking lunatic' for saying what the believe in is not nice. Just because their views aren't mainstream doesn't mean they should be insulted for holding them. Thinking gay sex is wrong is a matter of opinon, just like you might think christianity (or whatever) is wrong. My Fun's religious beliefs have nothing to do with it.

Falwell is a bigotted authoritarian ****wit. He deserves to have his views insulted. Not because they aren't "mainstream," but because they're asinine and lead to oppression.

	11-09-2003 23:19									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh It was supposed to point out that calling someone a 'fvcking lunatic' for saying what the believe in is not nice. Just because their views aren't mainstream doesn't mean they should be insulted for holding them. Thinking gay sex is wrong is a matter of opinon, just like you might think christianity (or whatever) is wrong. My Fun's religious beliefs have nothing to do with it.

Thanks for the lesson, Mr. Rogers.

	11-09-2003 23:23									#75
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Thanks for the lesson, Mr. Rogers.

Who the hell is Mr. Rogers?

	11-09-2003 23:24									#76
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@Rogan Josh

Reminds me of the scene in Jay and Silent Bob Strikeback:

What the Fvck is the internet!

	11-09-2003 23:26									#77
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He was a famous man who died a year or so ago.

He educated children in the corniest way possible on lessons for children through his own televised show called, "Mr. Roger's Neighborhood." Or some title like that, anyway.

But the point is, you were just being an assh*le.

	11-09-2003 23:27									#78
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun But the point is, you were just being an assh*le.

Hmmm... I thought it was you being an *******?

Anyway, I thought you liked *******s?

	11-09-2003 23:29									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Hmmm... I thought it was you being an *******? Anyway, I thought you liked *******s?

I am not going to play along with your game.

Instead, I'm just going to ignore you, so I can respect the wishes of the moderators on this particular day.

	11-09-2003 23:30									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh The first one is fair enough as a definition though, but what makes you think that other people want the same things out of life as you do?

Observation over time. Deal with someone that way you'd like to be dealt with. Observe result. Adjust game plan accordingly. In time, you can be 'good' to people without forcing your definition of 'good' on them.

quote: Do you mean that you think morals are somehow transcendant? That they are not manufactured, but fixed laws of nature? hmmmm. I had always thought the atheist viewpoint would be that they come from man (e.g. a consequence of evolution - everyone benefits if we have a code to order ourselves by, so it is evolutionarily programmed into us). I have no problem with morality being the 'whim' of God.

I do hold that morals are manufactured by culture with a foundation based on our nature as a species.

The question was about where morality comes from for a religious person. If morality is the 'whim' of God then morality is a useless concept. If God were to command the death of all redheads, most people would, rightly, say that is immoral. However, if 'good' is whatever God says it is, that morality is His 'whim', then the genocide of redheads must, be definition, be a moral thing to do. Ah, but some would say, God is good and therefore would not command such a thing! Irrevelant. By 'good' being whatever God says is good, then saying God is good adds nothing to the argument. You're just repeating yourself. With morality being the 'whim' of God and good being dependent on what God says is good, than any action becomes morally permissible if God so commands it. Such as morality is meaningless as it allows for even the most horrific acts to be considered 'good'. By having your morality rest soley on the thoughts of another, no matter how powerful or wise that other is, you give up your right to be an autonomous moral agent and thus cannot be considered a moral person.

Ah, but what if you hold my position and say that morality is the result of cultural interaction with evolutionary factors. I used it to get out of the arguement so surely you can. No. The belief in God gets in the way again. Whether our evolution was guided by God or merely set in motion by God, He has played an influence in the moral system we must now work with. So if those morals we develop were made directly by him, we've got the problem laid out in he paragraph above. We can't be considered moral agents. If, however, morals exist independent of God and He merely used them as a template, well, there's no need for us to deal with God as we can get morality without needing religion. God is thus either amoral and a stealer of our freedom to be moral or unnecessary.

	11-09-2003 23:30									#81
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It ain't always better to give than to receive

	11-09-2003 23:39									#82
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I understand where you are coming from (I think) but why is it 'better' to take your morals from a universal law than from a God? What difference does it make (to your morality) that God is capable of free-will?

After all, the transcendent morality may be state that it is OK to murder redheads after 12pm tonight (while it had been immoral for all of time before) and you will wake up tomorrow with an inexplicable urge.

Why are you more 'autonomous' when the law is 'transcendent' than when it comes from God - you are still obeying arbitrary external commands which tell you right from wrong?

	12-09-2003 03:02									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor And this is why California is probably the best State in the US. Are you converting your latinos into heathens as well ?

Spiffor, you speak only the truth.

	12-09-2003 03:09									#84
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quote: I understand where you are coming from (I think) but why is it 'better' to take your morals from a universal law than from a God? What difference does it make (to your morality) that God is capable of free-will?

Good point. As, IMO, religion began as the "first" law todays law IS transcended from religion. Then, with all us atheists, muslims, christians, jews, etc. trying to get along in a country that came down from such religion we choose to not only ignore but denounce and spite our origins (more so the origins of the country itself)...

Laws, Commandments, Rules... whatever you call them they are still the samething and are still enforceable in their own unique ways. Yet, RJ, I wouldn't call them arbitrary. Rather they attempt to define "universal freedom" and "personal rights" as best to its ability... Most do stem from the golden rule idealogy.

I think the biggest problem with religion (or lack their of) is when the laws of it conflict with the laws of the land such that they cannot be ignore, and a small minority yells so loud about it that a democratic nation is forced to contradict themselves and lash out...

Man, I hate the ACLU...

Anyway, Religion and Law are the same thing. One is not better then the other, and they need to learn to get along better.

	12-09-2003 03:13									#85
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i think law is better than religion for only the fact that lawyers dont go around killing people in the name of the law.

	12-09-2003 03:18									#86
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Death Penalty ppl would disagree...

IMO, Law is better because it reflects what the people want and is not determine through a "devine" anything.

Yet, religion is generally something in todays democracy that is not forced on someone, but is only found if sought.

	12-09-2003 03:21									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Japher It ain't always better to give than to receive

I'd agree since BJs are a notable exception of where it is better to recieve.

	12-09-2003 03:25									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild So thank you Lincoln, for your part in helping further my personal belief system.

No problem.

	12-09-2003 03:45									#90
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Basing one's morality on the laws of nature reminds me of something I saw yesterday. A hornet was sucking the life blood out of the neck of another bug without mercy. That is the law of nature without all of the fancy justifications.

By the way when one is discussing the law of God he must remember that almost all the prophets argued with God and he even invited us to "come and let us reason together". He does have the last word of course but to say that he ignores the opinions of people who really want to do good is not true. Jonah more or less told God to get lost. Abraham also accused God of not caring. God did not strike either of them dead but he did invite them to prove that their morality was better than his. Many think that their particular form of morality is better than God's but they don't have all the information and wisdom that God has so they really cannot know for sure.