12-09-2003 03:55									#91
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quote: How does a religious person define good? It's Plato all over again. Is something morally right because God says so or do morals (goodness) exist independent of God? If it's the first, then the religious definition of good is baseless and down to the whim of God, which removes moral authority. If it's the second, then God isn't the source of morals and athiests are just as free to call upon that independent moral (good) guide as believers are.

There is a third option, one that I tend to support. God created morality, along with everything else. However, the morality that he created was the result of the universe he set up, as a result of both the laws of nature and the concept of free will. These "morals" - which you can call whatever you want, but the concept of morals applies - are inherently good, because they are a part of God's creation.

God is good. Therefore God must also be moral. If God is moral, then God cannot violate the moral law, due to his nature. I suppose that one can make the omnipotence argument - and one would be correct. God has the power to behave immorally, however, the exercise of this action is not within the realm of possibility because of the nature of God. If God were to behave immorally, he would cease to be God, and beliefs predicated on a good God would be immediately invalidated.

So, essentially, my belief is that God is effectively constrained by the moral law that was indirectly established by God as a result of creation (whether God-driven evolution, literal creation, or any other sort).

	12-09-2003 03:55									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'd agree since BJs are a notable exception of where it is better to recieve.

Did you try the other way ?

	12-09-2003 04:09									#93
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Eewwww!!! Homo!

	12-09-2003 04:10									#94
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Yea, what DF said. God's moral law is in his being. Trying to violate the law of God is like trying to defy gravity. You can try it but the law will win the argument.

	12-09-2003 04:11									#95
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quote: Anyway, I thought you liked *******s?

Anyway, my God is Starchild's void. Unlike Lincoln's God though, my God doesn't really give a damn about what the Hell we do. Not really, anyway. In essense I believe in 'Clockwork world' of the Enlightenment: God set the clock and then walked away (got bored with us).

	12-09-2003 04:13									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Did you try the other way ?

Absolutely not! I'm just going by the gagging and gurgling noises my ex-girlfriend made as well as her personal testimony.

	12-09-2003 04:18									#97
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Lincoln,

You sure you want to agree with me? There are major Libertarian implications in that belief I stated...ie, if God isn't allowed to behave immorally, or change the definition of morality, then who exactly is?

	12-09-2003 04:32									#98
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Well David, I think we are free to change God's imposed morality but he is free to not accept our changes.

I guess I don't understand your question.

	12-09-2003 05:11									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Basing one's morality on the laws of nature reminds me of something I saw yesterday. A hornet was sucking the life blood out of the neck of another bug without mercy. That is the law of nature without all of the fancy justifications.

Ya eat meat, Lincoln?

	12-09-2003 05:14									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Ya eat meat, Lincoln?

Yea, I'm an an animal too you know!

	12-09-2003 05:41									#101
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I don't. So I guess I'm morally superior, huh? All these leftist vegetarians and vegans are like hornets who choose not to suck blood from the neck of the other bugs, whereas the rightist carnivores are just merciless bloodsuckers.

	12-09-2003 05:53									#102
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Does anyone here have any valid arguements that show that the Monotheistic God everyone here is talking about is more valid than the pantheon of Hindu gods, more valid than animist beliefs, or the spiritual belief system of any native American tribe you decide to focus on, or Buddhism?

	12-09-2003 05:54									#103
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Kill the heretic! Gaaaaaaah!

	12-09-2003 05:55									#104
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Most leftist vegans I know prefer to kill their own unborn children than eat meat. I would prefer that they just had a good a hamburger...

	12-09-2003 05:58									#105
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NOT Heretic, Infidel.

That is what gets me about this particular debate: people alwasy paint it as science v. Monotheistic God, but the fact is that monotheism is only ONE religious school of thought..fine, the most popular but not the only one. The monotheistic ideology may very well be wrong, but that does not invalidate religions per say.

	12-09-2003 05:59									#106
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But something in all that meat must make rightists not care about children after they're born, since they're so eager to see them get bombed across the globe...

	12-09-2003 05:59									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Most leftist vegans I know prefer to kill their own unborn children than eat meat. I would prefer that they just had a good a hamburger...

I am sure they would support the decision of any cows to kill their own unborn calves.

	12-09-2003 06:00									#108
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Does anyone here have any valid arguements that show that the Monotheistic God everyone here is talking about is more valid than the pantheon of Hindu gods, more valid than animist beliefs, or the spiritual belief system of any native American tribe you decide to focus on, or Buddhism?

The God of the Bible is only known by revelation so it is fruitless to try to prove his existence. I usually do not try and prove that any particular god exists, only the concept of a creator of some type.

	12-09-2003 06:00									#109
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quote: Originally posted by GePap NOT Heretic, Infidel. That is what gets me about this particular debate: people alwasy paint it as science v. Monotheistic God, but the fact is that monotheism is only ONE religious school of thought..fine, the most popular but not the only one. The monotheistic ideology may very well be wrong, but that does not invalidate religions per say.

I thought the largest religious sect was polytheistic?

Oh sure, the say the trinity is "one god," but does that make any goddamned sense?

Erm, no pun intended.

	12-09-2003 06:02									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov But something in all that meat must make rightists not care about children after they're born, since they're so eager to see them get bombed across the globe...

I think it is called survival of the fittest or something like that.

	12-09-2003 06:02									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln The God of the Bible is only known by revelation so it is fruitless to try to prove his existence. I usually do not try and prove that any particular god exists, only the concept of a creator of some type.

BUt is the creator sentient? And is the creator good and a foundation of morality? That is not agreed upon at all either, and is very different from some of the moral arguements made here.

	12-09-2003 06:06									#112
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Strictly speaking Hinduism could be considered monotheistic. The pantheon of gods is more like the Catholic trinity than most polytheistic religions.

	12-09-2003 06:10									#113
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quote: Originally posted by GePap BUt is the creator sentient? And is the creator good and a foundation of morality? That is not agreed upon at all either, and is very different from some of the moral arguements made here.

Sometimes I wonder how good he is when I think of some of the hell I have gone through in this life. I do think though that there is a good chance that God looks at things a bit differently than we do. So we will have to wait and see.

The evil on this earth points to God who is not that nice to everyone. So, the God of the Bible seems to fit the bill especially when we consider that the Bible says that the entire creation is fallen corrupt.

	12-09-2003 06:13									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Strictly speaking Hinduism could be considered monotheistic. The pantheon of gods is more like the Catholic trinity than most polytheistic religions.

Interesting, just how independent are the different dieties? casue the trinity is a doozy of a construction (the theologians who came up with that deserve a prize..too bad the Jews and Muslims didn't buy it.)

	12-09-2003 06:18									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Sometimes I wonder how good he is when I think of some of the hell I have gone through in this life. I do think though that there is a good chance that God looks at things a bit differently than we do. So we will have to wait and see.

I like Nietzsche's point on punishment: that punishment is proportional to fear: the more fear an act causes to the group or individual, the more harshly they will punish: conversely, the safer and more secure a group or individual feels, the lesser punishemnt will be: if you are not afraid of the possible act, your need to act harshly against it is minimal. In this scheme, the omnipotent being has nothing to fear, since neither their correctness or position in the universe can be challenged: so what would the point of harsh punishement be?

Hell teaches no lessons, it is merely punitive.

	12-09-2003 06:21									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln I think it is called survival of the fittest or something like that.

I thought it was putting the heathens to the proverbial sword...

	12-09-2003 06:21									#117
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quote: Interesting, just how independent are the different dieties? casue the trinity is a doozy of a construction (the theologians who came up with that deserve a prize..too bad the Jews and Muslims didn't buy it.)

My understanding is that each of gods is a different aspect of the supreme God - Brahma is the creator, Vishnu is the preserver, Shiva is the destroyer. And the minor gods are sort of like saints and angels.

	12-09-2003 06:22									#118
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I like Nietzsche's point on punishment: that punishment is proportional to fear: the more fear an act causes to the group or individual, the more harshly they will punish: conversely, the safer and more secure a group or individual feels, the lesser punishemnt will be: if you are not afraid of the possible act, your need to act harshly against it is minimal. In this scheme, the omnipotent being has nothing to fear, since neither their correctness or position in the universe can be challenged: so what would the point of harsh punishement be? Hell teaches no lessons, it is merely punitive.

Maybe God doesn't care what Nietzsche thinks.

	12-09-2003 06:22									#119
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There are two things you should never debate: taste and religion. No one will ever agree.

	12-09-2003 06:23									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Maybe God doesn't care what Nietzsche thinks.

I am sure Nietzsche doesn't care what God thinks either, specially since God died before Nietzsche did.