12-09-2003 06:26									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo My understanding is that each of gods is a different aspect of the supreme God - Brahma is the creator, Vishnu is the preserver, Shiva is the destroyer. And the minor gods are sort of like saints and angels.

Actually Hindu theology is slightly more complicated than that, all the 'gods' are manifestations of one supreme being, the 'gods' are simply attributes of that being. The Western world lost this notion of religion after the destruction of Egyptian civilization (which shared similar views to those of the East), so Westerners tend to oversimplify Eastern philosophies by calling all these manifestations 'gods'.

To illustrate this point, the following is a popular recitation by Hindu Priests before ceremonies:

quote: O Lord, forgive three sins that are due to my human limitations: Thou art everywhere, but I worship you here; Thou art without form, but I worship you in these forms; Thou needest no praise, yet I offer you these prayers and salutations, Lord, forgive three sins that are due to my human limitations.

	12-09-2003 06:26									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I thought it was putting the heathens to the proverbial sword...

Yea, that too. Seriously though, I think that the history of Christianity for the most part is the history of hypocrites who do not know the first lesson that Jesus taught.

	12-09-2003 06:34									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Yea, that too. Seriously though, I think that the history of Christianity for the most part is the history of hypocrites who do not know the first lesson that Jesus taught.

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God"?

	12-09-2003 06:44									#124
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Jesus never taught anyone to engage in religious wars or to torture fellow believers or Jews for not being Catholic or whatever.

	12-09-2003 06:51									#125
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Well, the point was that what I posted above was the very first thing he preached, ergo his first lesson...

	12-09-2003 06:52									#126
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The thing is, given the four different accounts of his life that are accepted, he does not ever renounce battle and take a stance that is undeniably pacifist, so people have wiggle room.

	12-09-2003 06:58									#127
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Jesus also makes a point of stating how he will destroy entire cities and cast people into the furnace of hell for not receiving his disciples. That doesn't set a very good example.

He also says that he comes bearing a sword, doesn't he?

	12-09-2003 07:08									#128
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That's why it is best not to make him mad. But he still did not teach his followers to take vengence in their own hands. The civil government however is entitled to punish evil doers and maintain order in society and bear a "sword". But, as I said, no where does Jesus teach his people to torture people or engage in religious wars to defend his name. Those acts are against his teaching.

	12-09-2003 09:22									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh I have no problem with morality being the 'whim' of God.

No?

So you wake up today, and your god decides that helping others is morally wrong, but wanton murder is not.

Gonna play?

	12-09-2003 09:27									#130
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The thing is, given the four different accounts of his life that are accepted, he does not ever renounce battle and take a stance that is undeniably pacifist, so people have wiggle room.

The "turn the other cheek" thing doesn't do it for you? How about the "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they are the children of God"? Was he just paraphrasing?

	12-09-2003 09:30									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Jesus also makes a point of stating how he will destroy entire cities and cast people into the furnace of hell for not receiving his disciples. That doesn't set a very good example. He also says that he comes bearing a sword, doesn't he?

He was pretty clear that this was about what happens after death, so it really doen't supply a model for human behavior unless you seriously expect to be offered a role as a celestial judge.

	12-09-2003 09:33									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln That's why it is best not to make him mad. But he still did not teach his followers to take vengence in their own hands.

No? Didn't he beat up the moneychangers?

	12-09-2003 09:35									#133
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quote: Strictly speaking Hinduism could be considered monotheistic. The pantheon of gods is more like the Catholic trinity than most polytheistic religions.

The only problem is people like me who thinks that's BS and Christians are really polytheists who don't like saying it .

We should go back to Roman religion in 1 A.D. Everyone's little God is part of a big family of Gods, so you can worship him at your leisure. There may be a slight problem with the divinity of the Emperor and the Imperial cult .

quote: no where does Jesus teach his people to torture people or engage in religious wars to defend his name

I don't know of many 'Gods' who do.

However the leaders of Christianity after Jesus, especially those who sat on the Throne of St. Peter, decided these were good things.

	12-09-2003 10:58									#134
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korn:

quote: Ben Kenobi (did you used to be obiwan18?)

Yep, dropped the '18' after hosting IWS XVIII

quote: i don't understand this need to turn christianity into a pseudo science, and i think it goes against the doctrine laid out in the bible

Agreed, but I wanted to work with improving the 'wind' analogy, in such a way as to get some good questions about God, and how do we know God exists.

quote:
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it through faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make men stumble, a rock that will make them fall; and he who believes in him will not be put to shame."


Well said. There are many examples where the blind see better than the sighted, with respect to God.

quote: you aren't going to prove god through ID or othersuch nonsence, it is a matter of faith according to the bible, and for me I have nothing that inspires that faith in me

Not my intent. I wanted to show how the bible needs to be used as evidence. It's no good rejecting data because it does not fit your perceptions of what good data should be.

Why do you feel there is nothing that inspires faith in you?

	12-09-2003 11:05									#135
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UR:

quote: Didn't he beat up the moneychangers?

No. Matthew 21:12-13


Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. "It is written," he said to them, " 'My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a 'den of robbers.' "

Overturning tables ! = beating up.

Imran:

quote: However the leaders of Christianity after Jesus, especially those who sat on the Throne of St. Peter, decided these were good things.

Torture? Doubtful.

Wars in God's name?
None of the crusades had the popes speaking infalliably. Therefore they could be wrong in ordering the Christians to go attack the Muslims.

	12-09-2003 11:10									#136
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Boris:

quote: He also says that he comes bearing a sword, doesn't he?

But does the sword = war?

Matthew 10:34-36

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--

a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[5]


What is Jesus talking about? The world does not love Jesus, or his believers because they oppose the teachings of the world, thus Jesus will bring strife to Christians, dividing families between believers and unbelievers.

	12-09-2003 11:13									#137
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quote: Torture? Doubtful.

The Inquisition definetly included torture.

quote: Wars in God's name? None of the crusades had the popes speaking infalliably. Therefore they could be wrong in ordering the Christians to go attack the Muslims.

The seeds of Papal infallibilty existed since the beginning of the Papal Revolution. And before then, the head of the Church during the Roman era (ie, the Emperor) was considered basically infallible. After all, he ruled with consent of God and was his Vicar on Earth. He defined what doctrine and law was (with Church counsels) and enforced Church law. It was just a hop, skip, and jump to infallibility.

	12-09-2003 11:15									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. "It is written," he said to them, " 'My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a 'den of robbers.' " Overturning tables ! = beating up.

Yeah, but how did he drive them out? With a vicious tongue lashing?

	12-09-2003 11:27									#139
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quote: The Inquisition definetly included torture.

Yep, I wondered about your allusion, and recalled after I posted.

Again, does everything a pope does become infalliable? That I don't see even in Catholicism.

And of course, I can always attack the justification for papal infalliability if I so choose.

quote: With a vicious tongue lashing?

Yes, that seems to be the case.


What an image. Jesus Christ kicking the butts of the temple sellers.

	12-09-2003 11:46									#140
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quote: does everything a pope does become infalliable

No, of course not. I'm saying that just because Jesus did not say those things does not mean they aren't a part of Christianity. They were added by later Popes (and Emperor-Popes). Even if the reformation changed that for a large section of Christianity, it is still part of the history.

	12-09-2003 12:17									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Here's my first rock to throw at PH The Evangelical Atheist

"It is not the place of science to demystify the universe. For magic is everywhere around you. It is there every time the moon rises; it dances in the swirling currents of rivers; its voice sings a hymn on the wind. It is wherever you choose to look for it."

	12-09-2003 13:14									#142
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Ben,

Care to comment on my post re: God and morality?

	12-09-2003 15:34									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Yes, that seems to be the case. What an image. Jesus Christ kicking the butts of the temple sellers.

Still, violence is not limited to physical attacks.

	12-09-2003 17:43									#144
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I am sure Nietzsche doesn't care what God thinks either, specially since God died before Nietzsche did.

As if. We can prove Nietzsche is dead. If you want we can dig him up for ya. Where's your proof, reason-boy?
By the way, I think you guys should talk to a priest or a theologian if you want an explanation of the nature of god. Your description of hell as "punishment" is a little too off-base to even begin to correct, for starters...hell is the state of being endured by those who have not regained communion with God. The Hellbound choose their isolation of their own free will, and God cannot "make" us go either way without destroying the very thing that makes us human. Just because Falwell hasn't matured past preschool notions of morality doesn't mean that we haven't, or you shouldn't.

	12-09-2003 17:51									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Again, does everything a pope does become infalliable? That I don't see even in Catholicism.

Did the Catholic Church give up the doctrine of the Pope's infailliability ? I thought it had still not be successfully attacked by the reformists...

	12-09-2003 17:54									#146
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The Pope calls himself infallible ex cathedra-from the seat-i.e., when he is announcing a decision made in council with the college of cardinals. And I'm pretty sure they haven't taken it back.

	12-09-2003 18:40									#147
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Well the Pope has only spoken "infallibly" twice, once to say that he could be infallible if he wanted to and once to say something about Mary that escapes my mind.

	12-09-2003 19:54									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Elok By the way, I think you guys should talk to a priest or a theologian if you want an explanation of the nature of god.

Theologians themselves disagree on this, and they disagree with the priests and ministers, who disagree with each other.

So what's your point?

quote: Originally posted by Elok Your description of hell as "punishment" is a little too off-base to even begin to correct, for starters...hell is the state of being endured by those who have not regained communion with God.

That is just one of the interpretations. What makes this more correct than other interpretations?

	12-09-2003 20:22									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger So you wake up today, and your god decides that helping others is morally wrong, but wanton murder is not.

If that was what God wanted me to do, why would I have a problem with it? Since God obviously has more information than me, and I trust him completely, it will be better for everyone if I do what he commands.

I would take an awful lot of persuading to believe that the command was coming from God though.

Think of it this way. Imagine you are in a mall and you see a policeman chasing someone. The policeman has a gun and shouts for everyone to get down; he is going to shoot the guy running away. Do you assualt the policeman because he is going to commit murder, or do you trust the policeman since he has more info than you have? (Admitedly it is not quite the same since not stopping a murder isn't as bad as comitting one, but I am sure I could come up with a war analogy if pushed...)

What is your justification for saying that murder is wrong? Is it wrong because it 'feels' wrong? Would murdering Hitler 'feel' wrong too? Or do you have a criterion for it, such as to maximise the number of 'happy people' (would murdering an innocent child be worthwhile to save 100 people's lives?)? If the latter, do you feel you are in a position to judge which action causes maximum 'happiness'?

	12-09-2003 20:30									#150
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quote: Think of it this way. Imagine you are in a mall and you see a policeman chasing someone. The policeman has a gun and shouts for everyone to get down; he is going to shoot the guy running away. Do you assualt the policeman because he is going to commit murder, or do you trust the policeman since he has more info than you have? (Admitedly it is not quite the same since not stopping a murder isn't as bad as comitting one, but I am sure I could come up with a war analogy if pushed...)

The christian thing to do there would be to protest the policeman's action non-violently. If I was following the teachings of Jesus then whilst forgiving both the policeman and the person he was chasing I'd stand in the policeman's line of sight and ask him not to shoot the robber.

From an non-religious point of view, murder is wrong because society functions a lot better when people are able to specialise. If murder and theft are allowed then people have to spend a lot of their time defending themselves and their property. If they are illegal you can have a specialised police force to protect the majority of people, who can then perform their own task in relative safety. Theft and murder between two competing societies (aka war) is also something that can potentially reduce the efficiency of a society but sometimes the benefits are seen to outweigh the costs.