12-09-2003 07:29									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Molly - Molly, you accused someone of deriving amusement from this incident and I asked who you were targeting with that accusation - and you still haven't answered (how brave). And given that last bit about me supporting a right to have faith even when it kills others is just as idiotic as your first accusation (I see you don't use quotes, what a surprise) - just go away and take your bullsh!t with you.

What accusation? I accused a fictional character of deriving enjoyment. Other than that, I have no idea what you are rambling about.

I have been to George Carlin's site now though, so thanks for that.

	12-09-2003 07:45									#32
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I love the Onion headline:

"God answers little boys prayers: He says NO".

	12-09-2003 08:51									#33
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Molly -

quote: What accusation? I accused a fictional character of deriving enjoyment. Other than that, I have no idea what you are rambling about.

That only makes your contribution to this thread even more inane. But anyone reading what you posted knows you're lying now... Just go away... Your intellectual cowardice is matched only by the husband's stupidity...

	12-09-2003 09:03									#34
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi This year I knew of two people who drowned saving someone else.

There was an incident somewhere in the Midwest this year. Three boys, ages 8 to 13 tried to help another youngster who had fallen through ice covering a pond. All of them drowned.

	12-09-2003 09:39									#35
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There seems to be quite a few cases of rescuers drowning, most recently out in Dissident's area - Mojave Desert. Maybe the media is just reporting these cases more than usual. When I was very young, I fell thru the ice-covered Sauk River up in Minnesota...fortunately I spread my arms when I went thru and caught myself before being dragged under by the current and the ice held. But I tried to make like a water bug when I pulled myself out of the hole and crawled to shore for the 2 mile walk home freezing my a$$ off.

	12-09-2003 10:22									#36
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quote: I guess the folks on TWA 800, AA 273, AA 265, etc. just didn't pray hard enough, huh?

So being a believer protects you from all bad things?

quote: I'd have a hard time believing God answers any prayers. What's willed is willed, and the omnipotent, omniscient creator of everything is both incapable of changing its mind, and also has no interest in playing favorites with its beings.

Strangely enough, God loves us very much. I keep thinking of the example of Josiah in the OT who through repentence postponed the judgment of Israel.

2 Kings 22:19-20

"Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the LORD when you heard what I have spoken against this place and its people, that they would become accursed and laid waste, and because you tore your robes and wept in my presence, I have heard you, declares the LORD .

Therefore I will gather you to your fathers, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the disaster I am going to bring on this place.' "


God lets us make mistakes, and sometimes lets the world do bad things to Christians. Look at all the martyrs.

So what should the Christian response be to these tragedies? God can save me, but even if he chooses not to, I will still believe.


Daniel 3:17-18

"If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king.

But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up."

	12-09-2003 10:50									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Well actually I agree with you to some extent. I am pretty much a fatalist myself.

Are you a closet Calvinist?

	12-09-2003 10:53									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So being a believer protects you from all bad things?

This is one of the things that gets me, people who talk out from both sides of their mouth.

Person A prays. If something interesting happens that seem to be in response to his prayer, well, we will be getting "Praise the Lord, his prayer was answered." Otherwise, we will be getting an explanation similar to the one above.

	12-09-2003 10:54									#39
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Floods. Man is in his living room as the water seeps through his door. A 4x4 offers to save him. He says "No, God will bring me through". He goes upstairs and a boat offers to save him. "No, God will rescue me!", comes the reply. He is forced onto the roof and a helicopter says "Grab onto this rope and we shall save you!". He replies "No, God will pull me through." The helicopter leaves, and the man drowns. Later, in heaven, the man asks God "Why didn't you save me?" God replies "I tried to, I sent the 4x4, the boat and the helicopter. What else could I do?".

	12-09-2003 11:07									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Molly - That only makes your contribution to this thread even more inane. But anyone reading what you posted knows you're lying now... Just go away... Your intellectual cowardice is matched only by the husband's stupidity...

Telepathic as well as omniscient. Congratulations.

If I wanted to accuse someone of schadenfreude, I would. Really, it's that plain.

The husband's stupidity is matched only by your paranoia- or sensitive skin. If the former, I can advise only that paranoiacs do have enemies sometimes. If the latter, stay out of cold draughts and wear sunblock.

Dr. Chilton's punishment for Lecter was placing a television set with evangelical programmes being shown on it outside his cell. The bit about the newspaper cuttings makes this all the more apposite.

I thought of Lecter but wasn't sure- thanks, JohnT. Then I remembered Voltaire- see the link?

	12-09-2003 11:20									#41
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quote: Person A prays. If something interesting happens that seem to be in response to his prayer, well, we will be getting "Praise the Lord, his prayer was answered." Otherwise, we will be getting an explanation similar to the one above.

It is no different than the question of why does a good God allow bad things to happen in the world? The world does not care a whit for men, as we see through natural disasters.

In allowing men some degree of freedom, also allows harm to fall any one of us. I don't see how we can have a third option.

	12-09-2003 11:41									#42
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source? I don't believe it

	12-09-2003 11:45									#43
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Sorry, got to go to bed...early class tomorrow.

What part don't you believe?

	12-09-2003 11:52									#44
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It's always people in places like Kansas who do stupid things like this. Of course out here in California we get ditzy soccer moms who just can't understand why she can't drive her minivan through a 12 foot deep river.

	12-09-2003 12:19									#45
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Ben Kenobi - there's a problem with that passage from 2 Kings, the Lord was the one about to lay waste to the land/people, not a natural disaster. So praying to the Lord not to lay waste is not the same as praying that rising flood waters from a flash flood, etc., will cease rising.

Molly -

quote: Telepathic as well as omniscient. Congratulations.

Just giving others here enough credit to recognise your lies. And if I was omniscient then obviously I would know what others are thinking. Doh!

quote: If I wanted to accuse someone of schadenfreude, I would. Really, it's that plain.

Then explain the purpose of your first post.

quote: The husband's stupidity is matched only by your paranoia- or sensitive skin.

Hmm... I never thought I was the target of your insult since I said nothing about being amused. Notice how I mentioned David's post as the most likely target and explained why your accusation was invalid? But that's classic, you jump in here to insult someone and then accuse me of being thin-skinned for asking you to support your insult. Real pathetic there, Molly... Now, are you going to explain the purpose of your first post if it wasn't meant as an insult?

	12-09-2003 16:54									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So being a believer protects you from all bad things?

I believe I was pointing out, through mild sarcasm, just the opposite. Clearly, claims that God "answered" prayers in instances where people survived brushes with death are in stark contrast to such instances where people pray and die terribly.

You must logically conclude one of two things:

God plays favorites, and the prayers of certain chosen folks will be answered, and thereby change the fate of hundreds of others. So because one or few chosen souls happened to be on a flight that was in trouble, everyone would get saved, whereas a flight lacking any such chosen folks would go plunging into oblivion. This would be an unjust, arbitrary god.

or

God doesn't answer anyone's prayers, things just happen. People praying and being "saved" is therefore coincidence, and the opposite is just a lack of it.

	12-09-2003 16:57									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Molly - Just giving others here enough credit to recognise your lies. And if I was omniscient then obviously I would know what others are thinking. Doh!

Oh please. I didn't read anything into his first post accept that he was reminded of Hannibal Lecter. There wasn't any hint he was accusing people here of something until you suggested it.

	12-09-2003 21:29									#48
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quote: I keep thinking of the example of Josiah in the OT who through repentence

Who's Josiah...? I don't know of any josiah around here....

* alva does the DL
-

And give up on religion, the world would deffinately be a much better place. You know, the moment, history books start to depict all popes (and other similar ranks) as genocidal despotic sick maniacs on the same level as Hitler and Co, I'll know that the world will turn out just fine...

	12-09-2003 21:54									#49
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quote: Ben Kenobi - there's a problem with that passage from 2 Kings, the Lord was the one about to lay waste to the land/people, not a natural disaster. So praying to the Lord not to lay waste is not the same as praying that rising flood waters from a flash flood, etc., will cease rising.

Berz:

Not my point. Boris claimed that God cannot answer any prayers, not necessarily those involved with natural disasters, because his mind has been made up. 2 Kings rebuts that point, and that point only.

quote: the world would deffinately be a much better place. You know, the moment, history books start to depict all popes (and other similar ranks) as genocidal despotic sick maniacs on the same level as Hitler and Co, I'll know that the world will turn out just fine...

Invoking Godwin's Law to kill an inconvenient thread?


In this 'enlightened' age, we have had more people die from wars, etc. than in all other centuries combined. I would argue that turning away from religion is one of the primary causes for these atrocities that we see around us today.

	12-09-2003 21:57									#50
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God helps those who help themselves

	12-09-2003 22:40									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Berz: Not my point. Boris claimed that God cannot answer any prayers, not necessarily those involved with natural disasters, because his mind has been made up. 2 Kings rebuts that point, and that point only.

No, I didn't claim that. Once again, you're twisting what I've said. This seems to be coming a habit with you--reading what you want to read instead of what is actually written. That probably was learned behavior from how you read the Bible, though.

I said that if I were a theist, I wouldn't believe that God answered prayers. I didn't say he couldn't answer prayers, but that he wouldn't. The evidence seems to suggest that, if he's out there, he doesn't.

What I said God couldn't do was change his mind, if he's omniscient. If he knew exactly what he was going to do from the moment of creation when Ms. Edna P. Meriwinkle prayed to be healed of her cancer, then how is it he can be changing his mind?

The 2 Kings passage, if believed, simply implies that god is not omniscient and therefore can change his mind against his own actions. This happens several times, where god "repents" and changes course. How can an all-knowing god who is perfect in all he does change his mind? Any change in course of action would have to be pre-ordained. If god's actions appeared to change due to the prayers of an individual, you have to believe the individual was preordained to make the prayer, hence Free Will doesn't exist.

You have to explain the oddity that one old woman's prayer to be healed of her cancer was answered while a the fervent prayer's of those 20 schoolchildren whose bus went plunging into the ravine were not. Sophistry not accepted.

	12-09-2003 22:44									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia God helps those who help themselves

AMEN!

	12-09-2003 22:49									#53
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does that mean I can steal?

	12-09-2003 22:50									#54
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So go on then, Ben, if God is infinately benevolent why does he allow evil things to happen?

	12-09-2003 22:54									#55
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When I was 8 I prayed for super powers, I didn't get them despite being good for a WHOLE week! That was the day I stopped believing god listens. Perhaps he is to busy F'ing with other worlds and planets.

	12-09-2003 22:57									#56
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Syn Athena kai Heira keinei

Together with (the help of) Athena (you must) also move your hand(s) (take action)

	13-09-2003 07:02									#57
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Boris -

quote: Oh please. I didn't read anything into his first post accept that he was reminded of Hannibal Lecter. There wasn't any hint he was accusing people here of something until you suggested it.

Sorry Molly, there is someone here who can't figure out the obvious. Boris, just what do you think "reminded" Molly of Lector? Someone's post? Molly was inspired to compare someone here with Lector and I asked whom provided that inspiration and I still can't get an answer. Do you think if Molly had started this thread Lector would have been mentioned? It's obvious Molly was slamming someone in this thread for deriving "amusement" from this tragedy... Making sense yet?

	13-09-2003 07:19									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Boris - Sorry Molly, there is someone here who can't figure out the obvious. Boris, just what do you think "reminded" Molly of Lector? Someone's post? Molly was inspired to compare someone here with Lector and I asked whom provided that inspiration and I still can't get an answer. Do you think if Molly had started this thread Lector would have been mentioned? It's obvious Molly was slamming someone in this thread for deriving "amusement" from this tragedy... Making sense yet?

Gee, I'd say what reminded Molly of Lecter was the image of devout fundamentalists relying on prayer in times of disaster and setting themselves up to be wiped out by disaster.

I think he was right when he used "paranoia" for you, which you make pretty obvious by your refusal to admit you made a wrong assumption about his intent and your shrill attempts to keep the argument going. For someone who claims to champion personal responsibility, it's amazing you never seem to take any for your own mistakes. I'm surprised you didn't lash out at me for correcting your error on the Tommy Chong thread (though you did blame it on FOX instead).

I've seen you and Molly butt heads before, so I know you don't like him and are eager to take him one whenever you can. And I saw how you falsely implied Dr. Strangelove wasn't a doctor because he dared to disagree with you with his medical opinion, and didn't make any attempt to apologize. I'm well aware of your penchant for vindictiveness against anyone who dares to argue with you, but in this instance, I think it's safe to say you picked a battle unwisely and look like ever the paranoid fool. I can't wait for more eyerolls, with the hope they'll get lodged up there.

Tah!

	13-09-2003 07:30									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Even if I were a theist, I'd have a hard time believing God answers any prayers. What's willed is willed, and the omnipotent, omniscient creator of everything is both incapable of changing its mind, and also has no interest in playing favorites with its beings.

You are VERY Wrong here Boris.

GOD is capable and has changed his mind (or his will even).

Just trying to get you focused on what is correct and what is INCORRECT!

He also has played favorites, although not to the aspect of what Humaness plays favorities. I am not sure if you read the Bible or not, but God has done both, of the mentioned subjects I called attention to, both were on Moses...

Peace

Grandpa Troll

	13-09-2003 07:52									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Troll You are VERY Wrong here Boris. GOD is capable and has changed his mind (or his will even). Just trying to get you focused on what is correct and what is INCORRECT! He also has played favorites, although not to the aspect of what Humaness plays favorities. I am not sure if you read the Bible or not, but God has done both, of the mentioned subjects I called attention to, both were on Moses... Peace Grandpa Troll

Well, it's nice that you ignored the philosophical problems of that and just asserted it as truth, but you'll also note that my reference to being a theist didn't say being a Christian. What the Bible claims god does or doesn't do isn't of any concern to me, because I don't think it's any more accurate as a metaphysical text than the Illiad or the Odyssey are.