12-09-2003 08:30									#31
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First, my mstake, Taba, not Talba: a few links:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0itv0
http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/MEPP/PRRN/papers/beilin.html
http://www.kharrubi.com/MidEast/Maps/Map_Guide.html

A nice mix of biases.

The thing is, at some point, a palestinian leader will have to go to the palestinians and try to seel them whatever agreement was reached, just as the israeli PM will have to go to the Israeli people and sell the plan. Arafat is too weak, becuase whatever deal is reached will make serious compromises, and it will take much political will to do so: it will entail immense risk, and that type of risk Arafat does not make. The thing is, little is done to attempt to create this srt of pal leadership, and as along as both sides buy into a different section of the Arafat myth, such a leadership will not come to power. And if one must work with Aaraft in some ways to cajole such a leadership into plcae, well, then it must be done.

Last edited by GePap on 13-09-2003 at 02:11

	12-09-2003 08:31									#32
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Absurd.

On what legitimate grounds did Ariel Shraon and his cronies made this decision? Absolutely none. If the Pals and Israelis had switched places, and now the Pals decided to throw Sharon out of the country, what would the Israelis think?

Once again, this clearly shows that the Israeli government is not viewing the Pals as their equal but as second class citizens, people to dictate terms to.

	12-09-2003 14:45									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor And if you put your hatred for Arafat aside, what will this decision bring ?

Spiffor, you gotta be kidding. In the famous words of the Vietnam anti-war movement,

It will give peace a chance.

	12-09-2003 14:53									#34
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quote: [SIZE=1] For the love of god I don't get why Nethanyahu and Sharon took so much time avoiding getting the old hag out of here.

Bush.

The news today several times noted Bush's opposition to removing Arafat. They further noted consultations between Washington and Israel after the annoucement of the Israeli decision. They further noted that after those consultations that Israel would not move anytime soon to implement its decision.

Reading between the lines, Bush came down hard on the Sharon government.

Bush's position will undoubtedly be enormously popular among the Democrats and leftists across the world. He, though, is massively out of step with Republicans and conservatives.

Who is this man, Bush? Is he a closet liberal?

	12-09-2003 16:54									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov That is so true. And you know what? It has been tried between 1993-2000.

When the peace process worked ? Well, I assume it pleads in tha favor of what I say

quote: And you know what? The "moderate palestinian government" spit in our face by allowing the fanatics to control the street and create a wave of terror, thus fighting a proxy-war on Israel, while appearing clean to the out-side world.

Yes. That's because Arafat is an ******* and a thug. I am very much in favor of him losing power. I'm merely saying than his only expulsion from power will NOT be enough, if you can't allow his sucessors to be "moderate". I'm also telling this money should somehow bribe the PA government into actively fughting terrorism, and into changing its propaganda: Arafat got his support on his historical 'legitimacy', and on the hatred for the Jews. He actively promoted hatred.
The 'moderate' government should be heavily helped / bribed so that radicalism stops to be vital for it, and even so that radicalism becomes dangerous for it (because it would stop the funding/bribing machine).

quote: We won't fall for that crap again. They had their real chance.

Thank you. You just said you want the war to last forever

quote: For god's sake - do you remember Rabin? You liked him right? You trust his judgement? Well shortly before being killed, he began telling people close to his cabinet that unless Arafat changed his ways soon, he will be flying back to Tunis on a missile.

Yes, I like Rabin. And yes, he was right when telling Arafat is a dangerous guy for the peace.
Now, he is far from being the only reason for the war. Palestinians live in fear and disgust as much as Israelis do. You may tell all you want "we do everything possible to avoid civilian deaths" (which I trust), it doesn't change the basic reality that a Palestinian can fear of being crippled or dead when he leaves for work in the morning. It doesn't change the fact the Palestinians suffer from a all-day-long humiliation.
Arafat is an ******* and profits from this situation, so he'll do nothing to change it. Islamists profit hugely from the situation, and they'll do everything to worsen it. A replacing government (especially Israel-sponsored) will be too weak to adress it. Only Israel could do something about it.

I know it's not your job, but if you're the only ones who can do it, you should swallow your pride and do it. It is in your interest as much as the Pals'.

	12-09-2003 16:58									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Spiffor, you gotta be kidding.

I am not kidding. I can't stand the guy as well, since this ******* is a corrupt thug whose support comes from hatred. I know this guy will do nothing serious for peace, as peace could endanger his individual power.

But this decision in itself is absurd. I'm all for making Arafat irrelevant. And as GePap brilliantly pointed out, this decision will not make him irrelevant at all.
Even worse, if Arafat leaves a power vacuum, there will be a terrible fight for power between factions. It'll relieve Israel for a short time (since it'll be a Palestinian Civil / semi Civil war), but the result will be at best a military power, at worst the Islamists on the Ramallah throne.

And it'll be the occupation all over again. We'd be 30 years back, but with more hatred and bigotry on both sides

	12-09-2003 17:07									#37
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All this about Arafat is true, but the problem is that the status quo is NOT working, Arafat does NOT want peace, and Terrorism is NOT slowing down. There is no GOOD decision that Israel can make. The Pals have staked out a position that only allows peace with the destruction of Israel. Arafat IS the idealogical leader. They only have three choices...1.)Take some kind of action and try to get through the reprecussions, 2.) Do nothing and continue to suffer terrorism hoping for Arafat to die off naturally, or 3.) Give up.

At least they are trying to do something with the situation. Not sure it will work, but they have to be frustrated.

	12-09-2003 17:18									#38
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO At least they are trying to do something with the situation. Not sure it will work.

This is precisely why I oppose this decision. It is rushed and not weighted enough. I prefer to take some more time so that good decisions can be taken. A wrong decision is not beter than no decision at all.
If Israel has a plan for the succession, and how to make the successor both cooperative and supported by the population, I'm all for it. If such a plan doesn't exist, this decision is simply wrong

The idea of promoting Abu Mazen was great. In the end, it failed because Abu Mazen was shackled by the impression eh gave that he was "the man of the Israelis". Had Israel given him more (financial) strength to please the population, he might have won the hearts of the Pals

	12-09-2003 18:30									#39
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Arafat has to go, simply because he represents struggle, not compromise. Exile isn't the answer however as it simply gives him an opportunity to continue to suffer for the Palestinian cause in public.

Best answer? Capturing him won't be easy and could end as a heroic last stand and a martyrdom. So imprisonment is out, even capture and exile is tricky. He can't be legitimately replaced as he can block that. So treat him like the Israelis would treat any other terrorist leader.

	12-09-2003 18:43									#40
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I am not sure of this decision. It's been all too clear that it is Arafat who torpedoes the efforts of people like Dahlan to make stuff work. OTOH, I am somewhat doubtful that he does this for reasons other than to maintain his personal prestige.

I think we should support Abu Mazen in a coupe.

	12-09-2003 19:34									#41
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You could always exile him to the isle of Elba in the Mediterrean.

	12-09-2003 19:47									#42
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cool. still... i bet Arafat ends up dead.

Last edited by My Wife Hates CIV on 12-09-2003 at 19:55

	13-09-2003 02:18									#43
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO All this about Arafat is true, but the problem is that the status quo is NOT working, Arafat does NOT want peace, and Terrorism is NOT slowing down. There is no GOOD decision that Israel can make. The Pals have staked out a position that only allows peace with the destruction of Israel. Arafat IS the idealogical leader. They only have three choices...1.)Take some kind of action and try to get through the reprecussions, 2.) Do nothing and continue to suffer terrorism hoping for Arafat to die off naturally, or 3.) Give up. At least they are trying to do something with the situation. Not sure it will work, but they have to be frustrated.

OR, they could return to working with the PA, accepting that Arafat remains the head but ignoring him, and doing things to help build the political strength of another individual who can then challange Arafat for the leadership and win the backing of the Palestinians from Arafat.

Not hitting Hamas is not the same as running Hamas: the Islamist militants act outside of Aarafts control and if anyone gains from an Israeli obcession with him it is them..just look, two years of attacking the PA, and now even if the PA wanted to take oin Hamas they are much weaker than before while hamas retains its political popularity.

	13-09-2003 16:20									#44
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What took them so long. Arrafat is untrustworthy. Deal with him they way you would a snake. disdain the Euro ennui-loaded appeasement bug.

	13-09-2003 16:27									#45
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The No.1 reason that I don't like this decision is that it won't be carried out.

	13-09-2003 16:30									#46
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Correct.

	13-09-2003 16:48									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel The No.1 reason that I don't like this decision is that it won't be carried out.

IŽm against it too. But if one is for or against that decision - only announcing that Arafat will be expelled, then waiting until even the last Palestinian views him as martyr and supports him even more is the most stupid thing to do. They should either not do it at all (or keep quiet if there are any plans), or they should do it immediately without such an announcement that gives Arafat a kind of importance he hardly had during the past months.

	13-09-2003 17:28									#48
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precisely.

	13-09-2003 18:41									#49
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quote: Originally posted by GePap OR, they could return to working with the PA, accepting that Arafat remains the head but ignoring him, and doing things to help build the political strength of another individual who can then challange Arafat for the leadership and win the backing of the Palestinians from Arafat. Not hitting Hamas is not the same as running Hamas: the Islamist militants act outside of Aarafts control and if anyone gains from an Israeli obcession with him it is them..just look, two years of attacking the PA, and now even if the PA wanted to take oin Hamas they are much weaker than before while hamas retains its political popularity.

Everytime they have tried working with the PA, terrorism continues. Everytime they crack down, terrorism continues. When it suits Arafat to have a cease fire, then he has enough influence to bring Hamas aboard. He directly controls both legitimate an illigitimate forces of the PA. He has over 30 years of continual terrorist activity behind him. He serves as a symbol of hate against Israel. Somehow he must go. With him there can be no peace because he will not allow it. Working with him has been tried and tried and tried again. He will accept nothing less than the destruction of Israel. The time of suggesting that anyone work with him is done...the simple reason is that he won't work for peace. There is no good solution...exile puts him on the world stage...assination matrys him...leaving him in place torpedos any chance for real peace.

The only chance for exile is if Europe can recognize the above and help make him irrelevant. If the major nations (politically) ignore him and support is given to a succesor then there is a small chance for progress. The other two options provide none. IMO, there will be no peace until after he dies of natural causes.

	13-09-2003 19:08									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel The No.1 reason that I don't like this decision is that it won't be carried out.

Yep, probably so. No point in making such a decision if you're not 100 % certain that you can actually do it in the end. Every time they try to give Arafat a hard time they just increase his popularity, without the possible positive effects of removing him.

Arafats democratic legitimacy is really a joke but he's still elected by palestinians and is sort of a icon. Any attempt from the Israelis to get rid of him will give him increased (short time?) support. A palestinian might not really agree with Arafat, but I bet that he doesn't like Israeli attempts to get rid of him. If you don't actually remove him, you're just helping him.

	13-09-2003 19:18									#51
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That's what I've been saying all along: We should hire and install some puppet government to overthrow him. The fact that they won't be democratically elected won't be a minus against them, plus, we can play pretend that we hate them, thus giving them extra bonus points in the palestinian street.

	13-09-2003 19:38									#52
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If you get your will trough, we could expect a few interesting proclamation from the PA in the future:
"Those lousy, capitalist jews wanted to force on us all of the settlements and the entire city of Jerusalem. The PA will never accept such a proposal. We don't want the jewish settlements with their swimming pools and running water. As for Jerusalem; the most important city of the world with great potentional for tourism. No way, we hate tourists! It's the palestinian way!"

	13-09-2003 19:41									#53
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That would raise a couple of eyebrows, sure. But if those will come out simultaneously with Qaddafi quotes, they won't sound so weird.

	13-09-2003 21:26									#54
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I've walways wondered about Arafat's being democratically elected...who were the other candidates in that election? Anyone know of any?

	13-09-2003 21:32									#55
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Only one thing is certain about that election, the banana was not allowed as a candidate. Apparently he was considered to be kosher.

	13-09-2003 21:38									#56
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you've got your middle east all mixed up, Kropo.

	13-09-2003 21:41									#57
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An all this time I thought it was the middle east that was mixed -and messed- up...

	13-09-2003 21:43									#58
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one doesn't exclude the other.

	13-09-2003 21:45									#59
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Fruit sallad!

	13-09-2003 22:02									#60
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spam in a bun!