12-09-2003 10:27									#1
	Can we prevent GWT from trading with GCA? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

This issue is on in chat right now, and may be so important I thought it was worth a thread.

GWT will continue exploring our continent, and when they do they will eventually meet with GCA. GWT has several techs GCA does not, including MapMaking and Feudalism. We have not traded these to GCA because that takes away our MI advantage and gives them Pikes, and allows the possibility of them building Galleys to attack us from the blindside. So, it is in our best interests to not allow GCA these techs.

As it stands the only thing separating GCA from getting these off GWT is the time it will take GWT to reach GCA. If they make all speed there, GWT could reach GCA about the time the war begins (6 or 7 turns). Until then neither we nor CFC will trade contact to GWT. We need to think about whether we want any measures in place for preventing GWT from trading when they DO meet GCA. If we get the Engineering for Feudalism trade done with GWT soon, there is a 20-turn wait before trading these on to anyone else, so Feudalism may be safe for that time.

Several have been brought up.

1. Get an agreement with GWT not to trade with either of our enemies, but this tips them off. We could wait until contact with GCA was imminent for this, but in that case we would need to keep track of the GWT Galley somehow or estimate. We can tell the quickest route they can take there and use that as an estimate of when to get the agreement, get CFC to let us know where the GWT Galley is whilst they can, or use one of our Galleys to follow the GWT Galley. The Galley near GCA now is carrying Swords for deployment on/near GCA's Iron when the war starts. By the time it is free it may be too late and GWT will have found GCA. The second Galley is marked for suicide. We could use this, but it is somewhat behind the GWT Galley and we would be subject to GWT's whims about whether we made contact with any other civs or not for some time.

2. Make the most of it and trade MM to GCA the turn before the war. This assumes we can do so, and would take away some of the gold they may have for upgrades. However we are still risking them building Galleys.

3. Not care. We assume that GCA will be so busy dealing with our massive land armies that they will not have the time/resources to spare building Galleys, and that GWT will not go back on the 20-turn no trade part of our tech deal with them.

So, what do people think?

	12-09-2003 17:23									#2
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Do the Engineering / Feudalism deal to protect via the 20 turn clause. Don't worry about MM. For explanation, see the next chapter of the General's quandry. Yes, Warrior with no name has a story to tell.

Ssgt roadcage (ret)

	12-09-2003 18:27									#3
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I would urge movement on the Feudalism-Engineering issue immediately. Don't forget that this may also help us and surprise GCA, when we go surging across rivers they expected us to pause at.

I think we should make the GCA MM trade for a variety of reasons:

- We may take away money for upgrades if all they can offer us is cash.

- We may cause them to worry about us less. After all, someone who's giving you technology can't be preparing to beat your head in, right?

- They WILL get it from GWT eventually anyhow.

- Supposing GCA does get a boat or two built and units put on it. They get, what, maybe one of our cities if we are unlucky before we rush units in every neighboring town and hammer them into the ground? To truly threaten us from the sea, they would need a LARGE naval attack force, and they won't have the time/units to spare once we come rumbling down the continent towards them.

	12-09-2003 18:46									#4
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I agree with the feudalism-engineering trade, seems like a legitimate and reasonable way to block access to the tech.

Also, I like trading mapmaking the turn or so before the war, great thoughts on that. Of course, we shouldn't just give it away, but if we could upgrade a couple of units using it, all the better.

	12-09-2003 21:30									#5
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You know where I stand Dubya.

Make the most from MM before GWT can do it. We will have 20 turns of insurance for Feud, so that is not an issue. As far as GCA building Galley's, yeah right, like that would be a serious concern. The AI may pull a desperate act like that, but GCA will not. They will have more than enough units to handle once we start the war.

	12-09-2003 22:28									#6
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree You know where I stand Dubya. Make the most from MM before GWT can do it. We will have 20 turns of insurance for Feud, so that is not an issue. As far as GCA building Galley's, yeah right, like that would be a serious concern. The AI may pull a desperate act like that, but GCA will not. They will have more than enough units to handle once we start the war.

I agree. Try to start it up a few turns right before our war and get the trade done the turn before if possible. If we can take a lot of their gold for upgrades that will be good for us. The only way they could get a galley in the waters quickly is to pop-rush it or change one over from an existing build. And I think we'll have enough left over for homeland defense if they do try a tactic like in the PTWDG Vox-GS war. Not to mention our own unit building during our GA.

	12-09-2003 23:31									#7
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Moreso, it's not like they can build the 10 galleys that GS built in that war. Dropping 2-4 swords on our territory leaves them with less troops for their defense and represents no great threat.

I say go for it

	12-09-2003 23:57									#8
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Shall I contact Lucky and see what they could offer us for Map Making, or should I wait a few more turns?

I think the original deal was Map Making for Currency, but since we got Currency from the goody hut. . .

	13-09-2003 04:10									#9
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Lets wait a few more turns; maybe 4 turns before the DoW. Lets try to get the most for MM. I would start at 160 gold. It's roughly 20 gold/commerce per research point for the cost of research seeing how two Civs they now have it. So, that would put MM at a cost of ~240 commerce.

We will go down in price, of course. We will accept what they can afford before GWt can make the sale. The thing that is on our side is that they(GCA) doesn't know that GWt is waiting in the wings to try to sell it to them.

	13-09-2003 04:31									#10
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I don't think this might be such a good idea- the mere threat of galleys will cost us in terms of home defense. If, however, we already plan to have a home defence force, even of a small scale, then we have nothing to worry about. But if we don't want to even bother with a defense force, and commit ourselves fully to offense, then why given the the ability to threaten us, even if its really not a theat?

	13-09-2003 04:46									#11
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Even if we didn't give them MM I'd still want to leave a home defense force. We may be on good terms with CFC and GWT right now, but I wouldn't trust either one not to attack us if they knew our homeland was completely undefended.

	13-09-2003 04:51									#12
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Well, presumably there will be units around guarding against and killing barb encampments, and with the cities pumping out more units, I woudldn't think there would be any problems with galleys, they would have to get quite lucky to even get a ship off and land it, I think before we take them out, but I understand the concerns. I don't have the map in front of me, but it would be pretty easy to estimate the earliest possible arrival of a galley, say from the time they get mm to landing on us and prep for it.

	13-09-2003 05:35									#13
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Wait a second. Does GCA have any techs that we don't have?

	13-09-2003 06:00									#14
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Lets wait a few more turns; maybe 4 turns before the DoW. Lets try to get the most for MM. I would start at 160 gold. It's roughly 20 gold/commerce per research point for the cost of research seeing how two Civs they now have it. So, that would put MM at a cost of ~240 commerce. We will go down in price, of course. We will accept what they can afford before GWt can make the sale. The thing that is on our side is that they(GCA) doesn't know that GWt is waiting in the wings to try to sell it to them.

The thing is, the are an actual democracy over there. They take time to agree and vote on things. If we wait until just before the war, we'll have invaded by the time they have made a decision.

This is something to definitely keep in mind.

	13-09-2003 06:46									#15
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit The thing is, the are an actual democracy over there. They take time to agree and vote on things. If we wait until just before the war, we'll have invaded by the time they have made a decision. This is something to definitely keep in mind.

Valid point. I say we do the MM deal very soon. I doubt they will rush a galley. It gives the appearance all is well. It sucks the gold out of them. The downside - hmm - let me think... oh yes - it will give them an avenue of escape with a galley and settler.

	13-09-2003 07:02									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Beta Valid point. I say we do the MM deal very soon. I doubt they will rush a galley. It gives the appearance all is well. It sucks the gold out of them. The downside - hmm - let me think... oh yes - it will give them an avenue of escape with a galley and settler.

Sounds familiar. But I don't think Apolyton would be quite as forgiving to them as GS was to Vox.

As to NM's question, the only possible tech they could have that we don't is monarchy and I've seen no evidence they have it.

	13-09-2003 08:32									#17
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Giving them MM is folly. I don't care how much gold they have for it.

With the withdrawal fo GCA from CFC, they will have a large force in their original home area long before we are there. If they rip up roads, we will be further delayed.

Giving them galleys, and time to build them, when our plans do call for a practically empty home is inviting a serious setback when, not if, a couple of swords are dumped off adjacent to Banatopia.

Furthermore, we will be violating an NAP when we attack. They will tend towards being vindictive. Once they realise the size of the force we have assembled, they are even more likely to want to launch 'punitive' missions to 'punish' the civ that they may realise they stand little hope of winning over in the end.

Those are my thoughts.

	13-09-2003 11:55									#18
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GWT will sell the MM, that is almost a given. Why not suck the last bit of gold out of them before they persish?

I do not fear and Galley that GCA may send. We will be in our GA; units will be poping out everywhere for us. If we keep our Swordsmen depositing Gallye in between GCA and us, they will not even be able to sneak up on us. We have nothing to fear but fear itself.

I'm not underestimating GCA here, they simply will not be able to harm us with even two galleys should they decide to persue that reckless and ultimately worthless route.

WB: I agree, they are rather slow on getting things approved, maybe we should contact them now about it. That way it also gives them time to save gold for us for the deal.

	13-09-2003 12:00									#19
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How can our galleys stay between them and us, and stay a threat in their rear area to pin down forces?

What about getting the no trade deal with GWT?

	13-09-2003 12:11									#20
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We keep our Galley between them and our front. We can even advance towards their cities keeping a distance from a disembarking point for GCA within 3 tiles of the line of site of our Galley. We can even back track our Galley one tile or two to ensure we would see this Galley go by.

Plus, GCA can only build a Galley from Algalord and South of it after the first few turns of the war. We could even station two units to watch the phantom (because I believe it will never be) Galley from 1-2-2 of BigBend and one unit at 2-2-2-2-2 of Tripoli. There would be no way for a GCA Galley to sneak up on us then. If you really think a GCA Galley is a threat, then we could do the latter. IMO, a GCA Galley, even if they build one, will not be a threat to us at the pace we will be putting out units.

	13-09-2003 13:51									#21
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I myself actually have doubts as to whether we should even give MM to GCA (GWT won't be able to sell it to GCA if they can't afford it). The possibility is remote that they could land on our backdoor, but there is still a slight possibility and the issue of inconvienence to us if/when 2 swordsmen/horsemen land in our rear pillaging things.

However, I do view us giving MM to be slightly in our favor as we might at least be able to get SOMETHING (gold? tech?) out of GCA for it and it would fall under the ruse of helping them out and hopefully settling their fears somewhat.

We won't even be able to ask GWT for a no-trade clause with GCA until GWT meets them. I believe Trip calculated that is roughly 7 turns from now (so two turns after we declare war on GCA)

	13-09-2003 22:41									#22
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Also, if they are working on a particular tech, they can let us know what it is that they are curretly working on.

AND, if they do deside to build the Lighthouse, with their other GL (if they haven't used it) then it will be there for us to capture it (unless they raze that city).

E_T

	13-09-2003 23:25									#23
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quote: We won't even be able to ask GWT for a no-trade clause with GCA until GWT meets them.

No trade clause= they can't trade or give this tech to ANY other civ- this has nothing to do with any particular civ or contact they've made, unless I'm missing something...

Anyhow, I'm still in doubt, everyone here mentions how easily we would deal with any attempt, but as BigFree mentioned fear itself is what we fear, and this might be enough to hurt other operations, so I'm not so sure it is worth it.

What does the MoW has to say about this issue?

	13-09-2003 23:30									#24
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I would prefer not to even have to address the possibility of having units landed behind our lines. Just as NYE said, if they think they're losing they may just say "screw it," and put 6 units on Galleys and send them on a suicide mission to cause as much damage as possible. Even with homeland forces and reinforcements this would be quite a threat to deal with.

	14-09-2003 00:24									#25
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Sure Trip.....and how do they build 3 Galleys? How many turns till we capture Algalord?

GCA does not know what we have heading for them. Why on earth would they waste resources on a Galley or two, when they need defenders to counter our attacks? GCA will not build any damn Galley's! They will be building Spears; I F*cking guarantee it.

They know we have Galley's, they don't know how many. Why would you doom your core cities in order to send a few units that have no chance at doing any real harm to your enemy? GCA will hunker down, if not immediately, then after the first few turns of the war, I have no doubts about that.

This is not the AI. They will not behave irrationally. Even if they did, they will not be able to muster a Galley led assault on us before we are well past Algalord. By that time, our Galley will be able to keep watch for us if any are so worried about a Galley of theirs.

The Galley threat from GCA is not any threat at all.

	14-09-2003 00:45									#26
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I believe it is folly for them to invest the sheilds in 1 let alone 3 galleys. Lucky is smarter than that.

Our cities are so close together and can so easily defend each other that all we need is a warrior along the shore to give us 2-3 turns notice of any stupid GCA gallies. We then just divert the appropriate # of inf from the forces we're making to coastal watch and kill the GCA invaders when and if they land.

We're going to be building units in our core constantly. We can even rush units if we have to. Worrying about them building, loading, and sending a couple units to our core is absurd. Or core will never be empty, mil units will always be coming out of our cities and during our GA we will have units coming out in droves.

Let's sell them Mapmaking, get some additional cash for upgrades.

--Togas

	14-09-2003 01:08									#27
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Assuming they may build galleys is certainly not absurd. Once they see the amount of force coming down the road, it would entirely human to react by trying to hurt us where our armies are not before they get swamped.

It is the AI that never uses boats effectively. Humans can cause quite a bit of trouble with them, and they are more likely to try if that is the only trouble they can cause and they are doomed.

GCA has 5 cities that can build boats, btw. That is not counting Dancing Girl and Random Outpost.

We would be vulnerable near Big Bend, Equilibrium, and Banantopia.

However, 2 units SE of Big Bend would assure us of not being surprised in the East. That would be sufficient. Equilibrium is a bit more troublesome. 2 units would provide more warning, but the city is far away from help. It might be best to station a second merc there. With the walls in 10, 2 mercs should be able to delay an attacking force until help can arrive.

	14-09-2003 02:00									#28
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If GWT wasn't sitting around the corner and able to sell MM to GCA, then I would not worry about the gold we may as much. But, since GWT will likely sell MM to GCA, we might as well make something from it.

It also has the effect of putting GCA's guard down against us, even slightly; it makes them more likely to be building workers/settlers/improvements, instead of military units.

	14-09-2003 17:24									#29
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I didn't realise this would be yet another of those incredibly contentious issues!

As it is I am not sold on the idea of selling GCA MM, although I admire the inventiveness in the idea of doing so. We will not make much off of any such deal, as is said, "a little extra cash for upgrades". I am not very afraid of GCA Galleys, but we have got to where we are by covering our bases. If we know they have MM, then we are being reckless in not protecting our cities in some way from their possibility, however remote. And the plan does not call for such protection. The plan could be changed, but we have many cities to look after, and that would detract significantly from our offensive force.

What about the other alternative? Getting a no-trade pact with GWT? This equally works, just that we will go without the little extra cash that is just a bonus not required by our plans anyway. What would we make this as? What if we made the no-trade deal that they can't trade with any civ on our land but us for 20 turns from the time we trade Eng/Feud, (and CFC with our cooperation and permission), and even if we made contact with any of the civs on their continent we had the same deal? At 20 turns we will be at least 14 into the war, and we would have been disastrously routed to have GCA in a position where they could threaten us significantly with MIs and Galleys of their own. We should have most of their lands as well.

I think that this option has not been discussed as much as the selling MM to GCA idea, is FAR less risky (for even a risk deemed unlikely, if it had repurcussions severe enough, counts for a sizeable gamble), and does not cost us anything beyond some gold we did not count on anyway, that will not likely amount to much! We can work the no-trade agreement in to keep GWT content for now and to protect the war interests.

	14-09-2003 18:15									#30
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Mr.WIA- As far as I can tell, this isn't a contentious issue. The vote in the other thread is currently 16 to 1. That seems to be validation to proceed to me. If we're that worried about them using boats against us, why don't we task one city to build a boat as soon as our GA begins - we'll build it faster than they'll build theirs - and have it sitting down the coast a bit to watch for their assault? Heck, if the attack is a one-boat assault, we might even wipe it out. :P

Honestly, I don't consider Equilibrium all that important - we can just rebuild a town there if we lose it, and we already have a unir or two dorking around in that area. It's the location that is important for now, not the town - we aren't planning any immediate naval hijinks.